Military Lessons That Level Up Leadership (ft. Keith Willis) | EP 113

Plug: Paul Leon here. I want to take my hat off for a moment and speak directly to you, the listener or watcher of our show here at the managers Mic I want to take our relationship a step further. When you join our newsletter at the managers Mic.com website I'm going to give you a free resource called a selling script to sky rocket sales.

Paul Leon: welcome back to the Managers Mike podcast. I have a great guest for this day. It's Keith Willis. what Keith does, and I'm super excited about this He helps sales managers transform teams into performing teams. And Keith is an expert at this because he understands those challenges because he helps to remove them for companies with the following as results through his

Plug: And my promise to you is that resources to help you totally free, evaluate your current script and see where it might need some improvement.

Paul Leon: core management training solutions. Those results include reliable top performers, consistent team results, and structures that improve processes. In fact, in studying Keith's career he's actually had some clients in cases where they've achieved these results within ⁓ six months, which a very fast turnaround time. ⁓ And I say because a lot of training programs out there, for those who may have never Considered this or maybe you're somebody new to this podcast typically 18 months is a good turnaround time so for somebody to do it in six months absolutely fascinating Today what our core topic is gonna be around and Elise will start there with you Keith is ⁓ we're talk about what business leaders can learn from the military about servant Leadership today, that's gonna be our anchor

Plug: Thank you so much for being a listener and watcher of the show. And now back to the episode.

Paul Leon: topic to kind of hone on leveraging your experience, Keith, and going deeper as we peel the onion and define what good management looks like and the leadership skills needed to ⁓ the environment and results you deliver for companies, if that's fair.

Keith Willis: Well, thanks Paul really excited to be on with you and looking forward to our conversation my military experience started before I was in the army. I did four years of ROTC and as a part of that you have a cadre and what they are, they're responsible for the program. And so I saw a lot of leadership there. We would have class once a week and then we would have what you call lab. And then lab, would do things like rock climbing, repelling, those types of things to build not only skills, but build confidence. But at the same time classes, ⁓ there were just ⁓ thought processes and things that you learned throughout the time. And so these are people that over time you're going to look up to. They would talk about things like leadership. They would teach you a lot of different lessons. And then in my third year, I went to camp, which is competitive you get ranked, you're in a platoon of about 30 people and ⁓ have they call five at the time people get graded. So there are only five fives and then there were fours and you have to at least get a three to be able to get out of camp. And everyone that's a five is going to compete for the regular Army commissions relatively to those West Pointers. So there were just a lot of lessons that I learned. One of the things around the servant leadership, leaders eat last. And ⁓ we in terms of that's something that we just say, or if anybody's read Simon Sinek's book that he talks about that. ⁓ And of that is from his experiences of spending some time with the military. I remember that that was about the fruition we had gone out into the field while Germany. And it was super cold outside. And I remember the company commander rolling up his sleeves, helping put up tents because ultimately we all wanted to sleep. And oftentimes we think of leadership. We think the leaders are going to sit back while the soldiers are going to do all the work. But ultimately it's about everybody putting in together so that we can accomplish our mission.

Paul Leon: I love that. During your time in ROTC, you had said that the leader was also the one setting up the camp, if I heard you correctly, yes?

Keith Willis: Yes, yes.

Paul Leon: Would you say that that was one of the first times that you saw that and it kind of broke a belief of what you presume leadership looked like and started to define it during that time? Or was there other examples you experienced during that time that created your own definition of foundation that gets you the results today?

Keith Willis: Well, it's funny that you asked that Paul. My experience around servant leadership was outside of the military. Now I was in college at the time also. I worked at McDonald's and one of the things that I can say is that McDonald's was the first corporate culture that I worked in because they were very definitive. There were a lot of processes and those type of things. ⁓ But remember there was one of the managers that when we would close, he would up his sleeves and he would do everything he could do. to do to help everybody close the store down. Oftentimes when you work with a manager, they were focused on the money, they were counting the drawers, they were doing all of those things. I don't know what it is that he did, he seemed to always have his work completed and he would mop, he would sweep. And would say he wasn't necessarily the friendliest I would just say that earlier on I didn't like him. And then later on I began to appreciate him because of the way he did things and I could see his leadership style and the fact that he was always trying to push us out. Now obviously being in college, I was taking ROTC at the same time. lesson from McDonald's carried over because then when I was able to see that on the other side with military that was a lesson that was reinforced. And so I began to understand that as a leader, you are also a servant. that if you're serving your people effectively, then you're gonna get the best outcome that you can.

Paul Leon: I think a lot of people make assumptions about the military, kind of like what you spoke to that it's about control. ⁓ see that a lot in a lot of different groups. ⁓ hear stuff, you just have to kind of stay quiet and let people talk because you're not going to anyone's mind if that's their strong belief system. And I actually worked in a McDonald's too, since you had shared. I worked at one in Washington DC. was my first job ⁓ I had to, this this is going to make me sound terrible. So I'm something with you that a lot of people don't know was ⁓ we locks the doors. This is how bad this McDonald's was where I had to a mop. And if, and cause, and this is really sad, but like a lot of people would be homeless and they would.

Keith Willis: I'm take that.

Paul Leon: Bathe in the sink. So I was like a kid. I had to take a mop and I had to shoo away people bathing in the sink. I felt bad. Like, like I hated doing that though, because the manager I at the time.

Keith Willis: Ha ha ha!

Paul Leon: that was my task and I remember asking him like, why am I having to do this? And he said, because there's a certain status we have to keep. And I think sometimes when it comes to the military, we assume that they're too tough ⁓ had a of environments is probably the easy way to define some of your experience, whether it was McDonald's or military. What about those high stakes environments, if you want to go a little deeper with me, Keith, that helped you define servant leadership further? we want to go there, if that's fair.

Keith Willis: I was in Germany for three years in a give a little context. I left Germany in 89. So I believe it was I can't remember if it was August of 89 or something like that when the Berlin Wall started coming down. So at that time, it was the 40th anniversary of the Berlin Wall coming down. I was in Berlin then at the time when they were having

Paul Leon: Great. RU IT.

Keith Willis: the riots and all of that stuff. So I was not able to go into East Berlin. So that's kind of the context. we used have they call these no notice alerts. No notice alert would be you would load up all of your stuff, recall roster 3 a.m. in the morning or whatever, and then you hit the road in a convoy like you were going to war. And I remember looking back that there still plans as late as at the time, 1987, where Russia was going to come over the border. So ⁓ This was no joke. And we would practice and we would do these things and there would be timing, how long did it take us to get together and those types of things. So we played, wouldn't say I mean, we practiced. It was what we did on a regular basis. And depending on where you were in Germany, you were practicing your mission on a regular basis. It's what you did. And that's just part of the military culture that oftentimes what you're is your mission. Now, because I was in an ordinance unit, we fixed equipment, which was a little different because folks that were out in the field, they would be the ones that were fighting the wars, but if their equipment broke, they would send it back to us. ⁓ we would train once a week. We would a day of training and preventative maintenance checks and services. That would all be every Wednesday. And so that was something that we did. And there was a correlation between leadership and how well you took care of your vehicles, how well you trained. And so those are just things that you get to, but it was just kind of ⁓ whole thought process. And when we think about the I remember when the first Gulf War happened, there was a helicopter unit that was not able to go over. And I remember them talking about the helicopters. were issues with the helicopters, this, that, and the other. they sent a helicopter unit from Germany. It wasn't a helicopters, it was a leadership issue. The lack of maintenance a reflection of the leadership. So all of these things begin to come together and kind of put together a story. So when we think about leadership, we think about things like everybody's gonna orders, ⁓ you have follow orders, but at the same time, part of your responsibility is to tell it like it is, and everybody has opportunity to.

Paul Leon: Hmm.

Keith Willis: to lead everybody has a function in the military. If you're the armorer, for example, you might be an E4, but your responsibility is to make sure that all of the weapons are clean. So you might have to tell a lieutenant your weapons not clean enough. I had that happen to me I decided to pull rank, which was dumb at the time. I from that time forward until the time that I left Germany, he called me LT.

Paul Leon: Yeah. ⁓ really?

Keith Willis: never called me sir or anything like that because I had lost his respect. Because at the end of the day, he had a job I thought he was being difficult, but whether he was being difficult or not, he had a job to do. And if he didn't think my weapon was clean enough, it probably wasn't clean enough. And here again, orders only go so far. ⁓ You have to influence through people. You have to get them do the things that to be done. And sometimes it just means having a conversation.

Paul Leon: Hmm. Hmm. Yeah.

Keith Willis: not given a order, people will respect you far more having a conversation getting some insights from them what their thought processes are and those things together. ⁓ then you can come up with an ideal of what's gonna work, what makes sense.

Paul Leon: Right. Why was it, Keith, if I may, a mistake for you to say an order was a mistake? In LT, does that mean lieutenant or was that like inside joke? I assume that meant lieutenant. Those two parts to that question. Okay.

Keith Willis: Yeah, means ⁓ Lieutenant. Generally when you're an officer, they may call you. Sometimes LT can be a enduring term. In this case, it wasn't like you jackass.

Paul Leon: Right. Hmm. I mean, I have been called a jackass. never been I've never associated that word with the word lieutenant in my life, just to be clear. So that's why I was kind of like it sounds like a term of endearment. But I guess his tone is what you're referring to. Correct.

Keith Willis: Yeah, it's, ⁓ you know, if every now and then, sir, or Lieutenant or something like that versus LT, ⁓ it's kind you. You have not earned that right for me to call you, sir. You saw that you decided you didn't want to clean your weapon because I said that it was dirty or needed to be cleaned further. You had better things to do. my responsibility I think at the time in that unit we had close to 300 soldiers that specialist was responsible for ⁓ weapons in in the unit so ⁓ you turned your weapon in he was the one that said it's good to go and I don't know that I maybe he was being difficult but I think sometimes you just have to kind of play along if he was being difficult I mean you know how that joke goes

Paul Leon: Mm.

Keith Willis: Sometimes when somebody gets in, they have a level of control. They decide they're going to figure out if they can use that leverage. But sometimes you earn respect that way also. You don't have to pull rank. You can just go along with it and clean the weapon and they give you that level of respect. I wasn't willing to do that. whether he, I more wrong than looking back it, I think he was probably more right and I was definitely more wrong. Regardless of what his thought process was, at the end of the day, he had a job to do, and I needed to follow his direction.

Paul Leon: That's fair. At the time, you can recall, and I don't know how much you're allowed to share, I don't know if there's like an end. I don't know. I always imagine there's like a military NDA that exists. I've never been in the military. So stop me if I've gone too far. But was the issue around the sense that you were trying to protect him, like was your intention that and then you pulled rank?

Keith Willis: That's awesome.

Paul Leon: and then your tone shifted if we want to peel the onion there and then you and then the the other part I'm going to ask you just so you know what's coming how you have said it differently to get a better outcome if you could go back in time and do it again

Keith Willis: So if I go back in time and let me say it this way. So in some of these special forces teams, SEAL teams, people of a variety of ranks, everybody has a role and responsibility. So let's just pretend for a moment. I decided I was going to go to ranger school. I was going to go to special forces and I have a E7. Maybe I'm a captain at the time or there's an E6 that has responsibility for something. Imagine me kind of counter manning that person.

Paul Leon: Sure. Okay.

Keith Willis: in saying, no, we're going to do it this way, even though it's that person's responsibility. from perspective, I look and I say, man, you were really wrong because, it wasn't forces. It wasn't any of those things. At the end of the day, what the armor asked me to do is go back and clean the weapon or finish cleaning it. Or he felt that it wasn't clean enough. Whether it was or not as relative, it just it should have just been what I did. It wouldn't have taken me an additional five or 10 minutes. I could have played along with them. And so by me just saying, Hey, I'm turning in my weapon and that's that he, I just lost a lot of his respect. And I think at times when we're communicating with people, there's a common, and this is just in leadership in general, we want people to do what we want them to do. I mean, we, everybody's a control freak to some degree.

Paul Leon: Hmm. Understood. Okay.

Keith Willis: one of the issues of what we have in the world today is we a lot of time having conversations about what we think other people should be doing. And sometimes it's just, you just need to do what you need do. And if somebody asks you to do something because that's their role and responsibility, then that's what you need to do. It's not like was going to spend an extra hour cleaning the weapon. ⁓ It would just, know, or I could ask them some questions, hey,

Paul Leon: Right.

Keith Willis: Where would you like me to focus my time on this weapon? I thought it was clean, know, help me out here. Give me a little bit more information. There are a lot of other things I could have done other than decide I was going to use my rank.

Paul Leon: I like that you were very humble to come from humble beginnings ⁓ mentioning McDonald's and we that in common. I have a belief, ⁓ personally, that good results action come from place of either clear or lack of of too much ambiguity. I kind of want to go into your today works, the things you're doing now, because you're helping a lot of sales managers get results. And a lot of that stems from that background, which is very impressive. And I do want to say ⁓ I go deeper, Keith, I do want to say thank you for what you've done for our country. Personally, I don't feel like I should have started with that. Now that I'm speaking of wishing I could go back in time, I could do this, I would have said that. So let me just stop, stop here and say thank you for what you did for our country. Number one, right off the bat, if that's fair. So, yeah,

Keith Willis: Thanks, Paul. Appreciate it.

Paul Leon: So where do managers create ambiguity in their day-to-day that you see when you first go into a company, you could frame it from that way or any way you choose, Keith. Where do managers create without even realizing it? I just kind of want to peel the onion around this question and see if you can give some good examples that we can kind of jump off from, if that's fair, or what you've seen, your experience. ⁓

Keith Willis: I'll start with myself because I think communication. So when we talk about ambiguity, it's, being clear in your communication. And the end of the day, communication is very, very hard. even after all these years, having managed people and managed teams, you think you have it down pat having consulting ⁓ I have an executive and very, you know, trying to figure out whether or not you're communicating clearly. you'll find out very quickly, ask your executive assistant to do something they will look at you ⁓ a deer in the headlights. I have no earthly idea ⁓ you're asking me to do. And funny thing about it is that they will ask stuff that you think in, I'll be thinking in the back of my mind, I just would never have even thought of that question in a worlds. Here's a ⁓ example before got on our call. I was in San Diego a couple of weeks and I needed to do an expense report and I had asked my executive assistant to do this expense report. sent over, I put all of the receipts and everything and then I sent over just said, this needs to be done. Now we had done ⁓ an expense report, don't know, several months ago, I guess that was ages ago. have a loom video. I looked for one. I didn't find anything, but I sent this email off to her. She sends back an email and, it, And the last thing I said, if you have other questions, let me know. So we ended up on a 15 minute call, me walking through the document, but it was clear that my original direction and email was clearly not clear enough about what needed to happen, how it needed to happen. the reality of it is that this is what happens on a regular basis with managers. You have a sales team, ⁓ tell them to do X, you don't give any context, you don't say why. You give no other information other than to say this needs to be done.

Paul Leon: Right.

Keith Willis: have no other information other than that. So I think in terms of managerial work sessions on the sales side So in pharma sales managers usually spend a in the field a couple of days in the field and then at the end of the day they usually will have some type of Thing that representative has to do development plan of some sort Usually what happens from four to six later the manager will go out into the field the thing that was supposed to done from a development standpoint either wasn't done ⁓ or ⁓ the field coach report and they were maybe clear and not clear about what was supposed to be done and work on it the night before. then the manager wonders why there's been no improvements ⁓ in skill. part of it is that oftentimes communication is one way. Here's what I think needs to happen. There's no level of agreement. Do we agree that, do we both agree that this is the issue, this is the challenge, this is the problem?

Paul Leon: Right.

Keith Willis: What are your thoughts about how we should solve this? Here's what my thoughts are. Can we come together somewhere in the middle? so there we go. So in some cases, you have managers really good at coaching, but not real good at accountability. Don't hold the person accountable. Don't have due dates about whatever it is they want that person to do. Just, that's just say for argument sake that you want the representative to do speaker programs or more speaker programs. And then you wait six weeks to follow up. Well,

Paul Leon: Hmm.

Keith Willis: you could follow up in a couple of days and say, just had a conversation about setting up speaker programs. Who did you talk to? What offices did you go to? And then give some direction or have a conversation about next steps and those types of things. So that's what I mean about ambiguity, it happens on a regular basis. And then the manager who sits in the middle,

Paul Leon: Hmm.

Keith Willis: has the same problem, because oftentimes the direction they get from their manager is very ambiguous because the direction that that manager got from their was very ambiguous. So everybody's running around in circles chasing themselves because no one's clear exactly supposed to happen. And then if you're in a meeting and you ask for some clarification, people will look at you like you're crazy.

Paul Leon: Right.

Keith Willis: Hahaha!

Paul Leon: I have a selfish question. wasn't on my guide. What some, in your opinion, in your of experience, are some dangerous assumptions new managers make that if you universally, like I gave a magic okay.

Keith Willis: Hahaha.

Paul Leon: You can wave it at all new managers today who are starting their position. What are some dangerous assumptions you feel new managers make that costs them significant amounts of time, frustration, and a lot of pain that if they just fixed a few of these assumptions, this would probably increase productivity by, I'm just gonna make up a number, by 50%. I'm just making it up that isn't anything found in any real data. I'm curious from your perspective, what are a few assumptions new managers make based on your experience that you could wave that magic wand, this is what you would eliminate right there to help them all at the same time.

Keith Willis: I would probably say number one, there's a feeling that somebody has waved a magic wand over your head and made you manager, that all of a sudden that you're all knowing. And don't have the ability to ask anybody any questions or ask for help. Because I know that was an assumption that I had made.

Paul Leon: Yeah. Right. Mmm.

Keith Willis: It wasn't until later in my career that I asked for help with situations. I remember one time going into a coaching situation where I roleplayed with my manager. I had been an experienced manager for years and we both played through a situation. manager told you need to tell this person. There was issue around trust and they were, they me you need to tell this person that. was like, really? You want me to tell them that? And so I did that. The bottom line is that the coaching conversation went extremely well. If I hadn't done that, it may have gone in a different direction. If I look back the previous, I don't know, seven or eight years when I was a district sales manager, very rarely did I approach my manager and say I need help with something or any coaching situation or coaching conversation. might talk to a peer. I had a peer I would talk to every day. We would talk at least once a week for, I guess, over the course of six years. ⁓

Paul Leon: Right.

Keith Willis: But the thought that I needed to go to my manager and have that conversation, it was just, thought that that would make me look less than. And I think the same thing with your people if open yourself up to be a little more vulnerable, also to let them know, hey, I don't have all the answers. I'm here in this with you. I think that will go a long way in helping make new managers a lot more effective. So that would be number one.

Paul Leon: Hmm. Hmm.

Keith Willis: Number two, there's an assumption that the manager's role to and direct people what they need to be. My mantra is that your role as a manager and leader is to make your people the best version of themselves that they can be. And what I mean by that is you are their talents, ⁓ their skills abilities that they have.

Paul Leon: Hmm.

Keith Willis: those skill sets may be very different than yours. Now the job is a job. There's certain things that you need to be able to do on the job, but you've got to do is you've got to be able to leverage that person's talent. The person is really good at storytelling with their customers, let them ⁓ tell. If the person is very good at using data and analysis and those types of things, you help them leverage that. Now there might be elements where they need to tell a story, but that's not what you defer to with them because You're not helping them be the best version of themselves that they can be. So I think between that and asking for help will go a long way in helping new managers be a lot more effective because just like if you're a new sales rep, you're learning. It's just like being a new manager. You're It's if you're playing sports, if you're in a minor leagues and you go to the major leagues, it's the game, but everything goes to a different level. So it's the same thing. Everybody is at the same place.

Paul Leon: Hmm.

Keith Willis: You're moving from point A, you're moving to the next point, to the next point. You need help along the way. You've got to be willing to have those discussions with people. And then you've got to bring your team in and you've got to help them see that here's how I can help you be the best version of you that you can be.

Paul Leon: I think the that comes to my mind is it's a matter of discipline. feel disciplines is a word that I'm going to introduce here at this point in the conversation. Do you feel that the word discipline is really that that line that separates like a high performing manager from an average one? Would you say there's other words on that line, Keith, that also need to be included? Or maybe if we could just pick one, would that be the one or is there more there? And then I want to ask you, what does

Keith Willis: Yeah, I-

Paul Leon: plinth look like in management further, if we can go there too.

Keith Willis: Yeah. So if I were to use discipline, would say discipline and consistency kind of go together. ⁓ I think of it that way, one-on-ones. I a, when I was a, it was interesting because as a sales manager, you spend time in the field. one of that I didn't do is I didn't do calls, regular calls with my team. Now I might spend office day on Friday and talk to everybody on the team, but I did notice that managers that talk.

Paul Leon: Over.

Keith Willis: and communicated with their teams from a sales perspective more regularly, produced more consistent and better results. When I went into the home office, I remember when I did my first one-on-one. Now, I was a manager that did kind of the walk around management, talk to people all the time, those type of things. I did my first one-on-one with my direct report and we were only supposed to have 30 minutes. We spent about an hour and a half and I remember thinking, I talk to her every day. Like, what am I missing? And that was when I realized, oh, doing a 101 weekly is really important. It's something you should do on a regular basis. And the data's compelling. I think it's Marcus Buckingham that says at least a 15-minute conversation every week makes a big difference. Gallup's got some data that talks about 101s, and there are other tools and resources out there to talk about doing a 101's a very smart thing to do.

Paul Leon: you Yeah. Yeah.

Keith Willis: That's something, that's a tool that managers will do. And what I find is because in a lot of organizations, people travel, when do managers not do one-on-ones? When they're on the road? Well, we've got phones, we have Zoom, we have Google, we have all of these things. Even if it's just a 15 minute conversation, do your one-on-ones, it'll go a long way in making a big difference. Or you got a team, do a staff meeting.

Paul Leon: Yeah. Yeah.

Keith Willis: it's all of those different things that we talk about things like change management. We talk about communication. Those are all vehicles that we have an opportunity to meet with our people, develop our people, provide coaching and feedback on a regular basis, just in a weekly one on one. So if you think about it, and that's just a for argument sake, if you do them consistently, let's say you do about anywhere. 48 or of them or so. That's a good amount of time that you're spending with an individual just business, ⁓ on development, and those type of things. So I think the best managers that consistently, and then you add that along with accountability. What is it that you're supposed to be doing, and then making sure that those things get done. So those are things that I find that differentiate the best managers from those managers that just okay. Because ultimately, those are the pieces that get back to this execution piece.

Paul Leon: Right.

Keith Willis: especially if you're a first and second line manager, it's all about the execution and what's the best way to get execution. You to spend time with people. You've got have these one-on-ones. You have to provide some coaching and some feedback. You've got to have some accountability. That's the only that you're going to impact that performance line.

Paul Leon: I like that. I didn't mention that you were StrengthQuest

Keith Willis: Yeah, I'm certified as a Clifton Strengths Coach.

Paul Leon: And for those who may not have context to what that truly means in terms of value and why it's a value to someone when they hire you, would you mind sharing to maybe like somebody who may not know what's CliftonStrengths Because that's been founded in years of research. I'm curious if you're willing to speak about your journey, why that certification is important to you, why you got it to help get results for your customers.

Keith Willis: Yes, my CliftonStrengths journey started, I was a manager at the time. So I had read this book, Break All the Rules by Marcus Buckingham. And in that book, he talks about CliftonStrengths and the way he does it, he doesn't talk about it from the standpoint of these are the 34 themes, here's what they mean. He talked about it in stories and people living every day and how they did their jobs and how they applied their strengths or their top five. And so it was done in a way that you could visualize what that meant for people. he does another part where he shows how people move from one job to another job. And the jobs are so completely different or different careers, but he shows how they use those same strengths in another role. And so I remember thinking, it's like, Hmm, that seems like something that would be very beneficial. And that was driven home. was with one of my sales representatives at the time who was struggling and they struggle with product knowledge. And so at end of the first day they went, they told me, so, well, I guess I'm going to go home and cry. And they were being a little facetious. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. I had a good relationship with her.

Paul Leon: Hmm. Yeah, I was gonna say he said that or she said that well, I was a good rapport

Keith Willis: But I got to tell you, went home and thought about that. And it's like, OK, what am I missing? So the following day, I asked her, said, what is it that you do well? And she says, I paint pictures for to get a sense of the patients they should be writing for. And so I said that that was what we were going to focus the day on. And so that was what we did. Now, our knowledge was never great, was never going to be great. She's great salesperson. And it wasn't that product knowledge wasn't important. It just was never going to be the strength for her. But the consequence of that day was that finished the year over 100%. Now, Paul, I wish I could tell you that at that point I was selling on Clinton's strengths and I was going to use it forever, but that didn't exactly happen that way.

Paul Leon: Right.

Keith Willis: Eventually I went into another role, helped stand up leadership development at another pharma company and had the opportunity to get certified. So I got certified as a Clifton strengths coach. And then as I worked in the home office with different teams, we begin to apply it more consistently to really help with performance of my teams. And not only that, my last couple of training teams, I was able to turn that team over twice, getting people promoted. So that was when it clicked to say,

Paul Leon: Right.

Keith Willis: this is a really difference maker. And I also saw the correlation between leaders and teams that I coached that those teams performed at a higher level than those teams that didn't do Clifton strengths. So that's why I think it's beneficial. I like a definition that I heard. And the definition is, it's the thing that you do best with the least amount of effort. So when you think about your talent, It's exactly that. What is it that you do that doesn't take a lot of effort or energy that you do absolutely the best? And you can find that sweet spot and just focus on that, then that's a winning combination. was Steve Harvey that, cause he talks about that a lot, cause he jokes about, I only tell jokes. He's like, I used to get in trouble so much for telling jokes and things. He said, but it's the thing that I do. And I mean, he's made millions and millions of dollars. It's he's like, I can take any situation and I can sit down and write jokes about it.

Paul Leon: That's a good frame. Yeah.

Keith Willis: And so that's his talent. And so all of us have talents that we oftentimes don't use. So if we want to think of it from that perspective, Cliffs and Strengths is a tool that will help you. There's 34 themes. Obviously, there's more than 34 talents, but it gives you some insights into those themes. It's really not a strength until what we say, consistent near perfect performance, which I would argue and say that will take a lifetime to do. So if it takes a lifetime to do that,

Paul Leon: Right. Hmm. Right.

Keith Willis: Why would you even waste time focusing on your weaknesses? Could you use your strengths to overcome some of those weaknesses or just focus on those things that you do extremely well?

Paul Leon: I like that. I like Steve Harvey a lot too. I know when I was doing comedy a lot, I used to listen to him. I don't know if I shared with you that. You're the star, I did the stand-up thing. But we'll see when I'm done with this MBA in the next 40 days, if I put that back on my plate right now.

Keith Willis: Mmm, okay. Cool.

Paul Leon: so many big goals. I'm curious, recap me, you reached the status of a director of sales in the pharma world, if I heard you earlier correctly, or is it higher than that when you were in that world?

Keith Willis: Yeah, ⁓ wishful thinking. I was the director of field operations. I reported into the zone VP. That was my favorite role in pharma. We ⁓ had they call DFO council, sales council. So marketing, sales, everybody come in for all the different meetings and everything. And it was a developmental role.

Paul Leon: Okay, that's awesome. ⁓ wow.

Keith Willis: the pharma industry, there are a lot of downsizing and things like that. So I would say that was the pinnacle of the height of where I reached. then I went back into training as a director. ran one of the training teams and that was pretty cool. And then we were bought by an organization. I became an associate director you how it It's you have your, your title is X, but I'm on the leadership team and I have budget responsibility. So it's, it's just relative to the that you have. I was running the multi-billion dollar training teams with multi-billion dollar brands. But I do think that that ⁓ runs into one of the things that I am working on right I was running the multi-billion dollar training teams with multi-billion dollar brands. So it's just kind of a relative concept is what I would say. But I do think that that runs into one of the things that I am working on right now. I'm working on writing a book called Never Look for a Job Again. And I'm going to build a course out for that and everything. And part of it is all the lessons from getting out of the military into corporate America, building a career.

Paul Leon: ⁓ wow. ⁓ really?

Keith Willis: going through that journey and lot of people get to that point where they're stuck and they want more. so being able to some of those lessons that I learned along the way and be able to share that with people. So that is one of the things that I'm working on and plan to get done before the end of the year. in corporate, they'll tell you wait in line, you've got to do this, you got to do that and do that. And for every person that does that, you always find two or three other people that have done completely the opposite.

Paul Leon: Yeah.

Keith Willis: tell ourselves a lot of stories. We act like we're the captain of own ship oftentimes. ⁓ it's that make a concerted, they make a decision, I want to do ⁓ and I'm not going to people stand in my way of getting there.

Paul Leon: Right. That's fair.

Keith Willis: So I look back and say, I always wanted to do marketing. I didn't do marketing. Now, when I look back on and there's probably two or three other things that I could have done that would have gotten me where I wanted to be. And so it's those combination of lessons and then watching other people make that decision. And then oftentimes when I'm having conversations with people or coaching people, I'll ask them some different conversations and it's things haven't considered people they should be talking to.

Paul Leon: Hmm.

Keith Willis: all of those things. And so sometimes it's just creating a more effective roadmap and then following the roadmap. mean, life gets in the way. never going to be perfect, but at least if you have a roadmap, you have an idea of where you're going and you can make a turn here. You can make a turn there. ⁓ think ultimately what it does is it, as long as you feel like you're in control, you're going to be happier than if you're not, if you in a situation where you feel like I'm not in control. the next downsizing is coming and I'm trying to figure out how to get the next role versus how do I leverage that to get a promotion? How do I ultimately be the best version of myself that I can? How do I do that in a way that's very purposeful?

Paul Leon: What I like about you far in our conversation together is you don't give any pragmatic, you pragmatic, practical advice. not like these blown up like tick tock things like buy this and get this and I like that about you and I like that you were humble enough to admit a mistake during your military experience. curious since you were humble enough to do that. What was a because you had worked extensively with pharma sales teams as you had shared. What was the biggest? What do you feel? Okay, this is my question to you. This is what's coming to me. is the biggest leadership mistake in that industry right now that now that you're out of it and you can have that 80,000 foot view of it, if you're willing to speak to that and I have some other questions if we can go there.

Keith Willis: I would say one of the mistakes, and don't know if it's just Pharma, often times get promoted and they don't have any training for their next role. back in the day ⁓ when Pharma was young, A lot of companies had developmental programs and so people were somewhat prepared. We were also a lot younger and people sped through the pathway pretty quickly to those next promotion roles and things like that. mean, I went to recruiting selection training as a sales representative. I to leadership type training. went to a skills assessment center, all of these things before I became a manager. And a lot of companies have gotten away from that partly.

Paul Leon: Hmm.

Keith Willis: because of downsizing, you put somebody through a developmental process and then there's nowhere for them to go. Then if they leave, you've trained the manager for another organization these positions, they just end up opening. And so no one's doing any leadership development. And it's very juxtaposed to what the military has done. When I went to officer basic course, it was before my first duty station. I spent six months.

Paul Leon: Yeah. Hmm.

Keith Willis: before I even went to a duty station talking about, how do you be a platoon leader? And then when I came back to my officer course, it was the same thing. How do you be a staff officer? How are you going be a company commander? So that, and that on both sides. That's not only on the officer side, it's also on the NCO ⁓ side where there's a deal of schooling and training for the next level, helping leaders become

Paul Leon: Hmm.

Keith Willis: prepared for that next level. corporate America that oftentimes doesn't happen. So we'll take the best salesperson and then we'll make them the next manager. In some ways it's very juxtaposed because sales can be a very very individualized role. I it's kind of you can afford to be a prima donna as a sales representative if you put up great numbers. You can't really to be a prima donna if you're gonna be a great manager. because it's not about you, about your people. And I think those are challenges that just have to figure out how to get people trained earlier. And another part of that is where do budget cuts come? Usually training department. I know couple of years ago in leadership development, and this was not only within pharma, this was across industries, companies were cutting leadership development people left and right. And so there was a space where there weren't a lot of people conducting and doing the training.

Paul Leon: Yeah. Hmm. ⁓ wow.

Keith Willis: And the other part of this is that I think there's a thought process that AI is going to replace people in jobs and roles, but you you still have to have blocking and tackling. You still got to have some practice with those things. So technology will only take you so far.

Paul Leon: Yeah. I'm curious since you brought up AI, and since it's top of mind, it's, it's, there's every day I hear about it. it's kind of getting to the point where it's exhausting. but in your professional perspective, how should managers think about AI right now? Is it a threat? Is it a tool? Is it a distraction based on what you're seeing? Let's peel the onion around this question.

Keith Willis: I think AI is an amplification tool. If you are somebody that reads a lot, knows a lot, it can be a great thinking partner. It can help you with coaching. You can take coaching situations and scenarios. You can load that in. You can ask questions. It will help you with blind spots. There will be stuff that you miss that you need to have in a coaching conversation that can help you prepare more effectively. AI is not going to have a conversation with you.

Paul Leon: an amplification tool. Hmm.

Keith Willis: you know or for you. I mean you can have a coaching conversation They can give you some feedback, but you to go out you have to execute it It can you with numbers I mean it can help you with so many different things there and the thing is is that a lot of people are using AI And they don't even realize it there are CRM tools There are other tools that are available that give them data and information They just don't that they're using AI Do you have to be very very purposeful in how you're using it in?

Paul Leon: Yes. Hmm.

Keith Willis: in a way that helps make you more effective? Can it help me save time? Can it help me more clear in my communication? Can it help me coach more effectively? Am I providing enough feedback? You can ask all of those questions and you can set up AI in a way where you use it in that way. Or even putting together or decks or things like that. You just have to get AI to get to know you so it can, in a sense, replicate who you are and how you communicate. interesting because if you read enough AI, you can tell when something's written by AI because it has, I joke say it ⁓ loves overuse adverbs when do we so many dashes? never knew we used dashes when we used to write. ⁓

Paul Leon: Yeah. ⁓ You Yeah, funny you say that I have my friend who's a big tech. He's a big geek, like big geek. This is a guy who has like five different programs, understands stuff more than me. I've got to the point where I'm like editing content. I'm like, somebody used AI here. Like I can, get to a point, this person would never use this word. And I can, I'll see him at me. I'm like, Hey, I use that word. What do think of that word? Like what word I never heard in my life. I get used AI. I want to kind of go in this question, because I think it's an important one. You've built a consulting firm for a long corporate career,

Keith Willis: You

Paul Leon: and you had to go from military to director And now there's the entrepreneurship journey that you're in, you're still doing. What entrepreneurship teach you about leadership that the corporate world never taught you that... ⁓ you feel is worth discussing and sharing, maybe for that manager or that consultant as well who may want to also think about that as well in their journey because side hustles are a thing. know, people have that. I'm curious to see some of the lessons you have there, Keith.

Keith Willis: Mm-hmm. Yeah. the biggest lesson is I like to say entrepreneurship is the biggest self-development tool that you'll find in your entire life. If something's going well, all you need to do is go look in the mirror because no one's coming to save you, no one's coming to fix you. I would say I used to joke and say that I needed to get the corporate beat out of me because if you don't like a decision, you can change it tomorrow.

Paul Leon: Hmm. Right. Hmm.

Keith Willis: It's funny because a lot of organizations talk about people being entrepreneurs or owning a part of the business. In some ways it's juxtaposed because don't have that latitude to make a change tomorrow if they don't want to do something. They're chasing somebody else's goals and objectives, not their own. So that makes it difficult to be an entrepreneur or a solopreneur or however you want to call it. When you sit within an organization because you're beholden to some goals and objectives,

Paul Leon: Yeah. Right.

Keith Willis: And you probably would make some different decisions based on that. So I would say those are the biggest lessons. a level of patience that to come with it. I would say there's a direct correlation to self development and being willing to take a look in the mirror. ⁓ the more that spent time developing on myself, I think there's a direct reflection of that in the business. So it's not for everybody.

Paul Leon: Right.

Keith Willis: Because you don't have a safety net. There is no safety net. So there are plenty of sleepless nights and things that you worry about. you ⁓ to figure out this piece around, we talked about strengths and talents and those types of things. And a lot of times when you start out, you're bootstrapping. And so you have to figure out what is it that I shouldn't do that I can find other people to do? ⁓ does that piece end? How do I work that? How do I do those things?

Paul Leon: Hmm. you

Keith Willis: At the same time, it does help to know a little bit about a lot of stuff because when you hire people, at least you have some insights into what they're doing and what you're trying to accomplish. it's vicious circle. I would just say it's just not, it's not easy. I think everybody in their mind has an idea of what that's going to look like. I thought that when I got out that, people were going to go do business with me. were people that I said, Hey, you know, you're going to, you know, let's do some work together. And there were crickets. ⁓ it's hustle. It's definitely a hustle. So I think there's definitely a lot of lessons that can be learned. And I would say, you can yourself to some degree in what you're doing already. But I would say that the biggest piece is understand as much as you can about building a working a business and just kind of, test some theories and do what you can do, why you can do it. And then understand that what you're going into is so different. from a consultant standpoint than what you did. I was talking to a guy last week, we used to work together and he's one of those where he made the comment, he said, I get up at 430 in the morning. Now, I'm not a 430 guy, but it made me think like, I working hard enough? But, he said, it made sense because, there's kind of a practice, he said, I spend time focusing on the things that develop me.

Paul Leon: Yeah

Keith Willis: gets his work out in, you I do meditation and do some journal work in the morning. Some people do writing. So those are all things that oftentimes people don't necessarily do in corporate. I think it's going to be more challenging now as people come back to the office that when you're getting up early in the morning, now you're going right into the office, which for some people, that's an extra hour, hour and a half. And so that extra time that you had for that, some of that personal time, you a little bit. ⁓

Paul Leon: Yeah.

Keith Willis: Obviously there's books on tapes and things like that, but those are all things that can be very, very helpful for people to be thinking about. What's the next transition? There is ageism, you know, in this country. That's a reality. I was very, very naive to that. The other part of that is, is because of the number of baby boomers that are retiring, there's a huge gap in the marketplace. So ⁓ more people have put their...

Paul Leon: Right. Yeah. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Keith Willis: shingles out so to speak to be consultants. in some ways it can be a lot more competitive, but it can be very, very lucrative. there's ton of opportunity out there, but at the same time there's a ton of work behind.

Paul Leon: Right. Yeah. What's something we haven't discussed, Keith, that you feel is important to about in world of management?

Keith Willis: I would just say as a manager... You've always got to be learning because there's two pieces to this management. We talked a lot more about the soft skills, coaching, the feedback, the accountability. There's that business portion. Become a business person. Really understand the business. If working at an organization, get on the calls. Look at P &L. Understand what the broader goals from organizational standpoint because that'll make you far more rounded as a manager. Time and time again, we'll go into organizations. We'll talk about business planning processes and things like that. what hear sometimes from folks will be, well, our business is different. Talk about business is different. We're talking about the process of business planning. How do you do that? How do you put together a pest analysis? How do you use strengths, critical success factors? What are you looking for at KPIs? There's a great book, it's called The Four Disciplines of Execution. And it's a great book around execution because what it helps you do is take the plan and then execute that plan in a way that helps your people. So at the end of the day, one of the challenges that we have in corporate, it is about results and getting results and performance. The other that's important is how you get there. And if you can put both of those pieces together, that's going to make you outstanding leader and outstanding manager. ⁓ process is that being good manager makes you a better leader. You can be a good leader, but if you're not a great manager, you're probably not going to be a great leader. Those two pieces need to come together. And that management piece comes back to that business piece as well as those soft skills.

Paul Leon: what's the strategy you're working on now that you can't afford not to have in your career?

Keith Willis: well, for me, the leverage of in what you do day to it's interesting because you work with clients and potential clients ⁓ and ⁓ those people are sitting in chair they're not, some of them are not using AI day to day. And one of the things I'm grateful about being on my own is having the opportunity to kind of play with it. Because a fear of becoming obsolete because it's what a lot of people, a lot of organizations are doing. So it would be the one piece that I would say that add that into whatever you're doing. You're trying to do career development, figure out how does AI play into that? How does it help me be able to do that? How do I use these tools? How I leverage them? Ultimately, I think people should be thinking about how does AI make me more human? How does it make me show up more effectively and better? And I think if people can do those things, they're going to be a lot better off.