Burnout Is Not Your Real Problem (feat. Dr. Heather Kidwell) | Tips for New Managers

Plug: Paul Leon here. I want to take my hat off for a moment and speak directly to you, the listener or watcher of our show here at the managers Mic thank you so much for being consumer of the show and I want to take our relationship a step further. When you join our newsletter at the TheManagers Mic.com website again, that's the managers Mic.com website. ⁓ I'm going give you a free resource called a selling script to sky rocket sales.

Paul Leon: Dr. Heather Kidwell, you help high achieving individuals reconnect with themselves to stop chasing external stress solutions and build a sustainable way of living and working aligned with their needs. as little as six weeks, people who work with you feel more aligned, focused and at ease. With around 20 years of experience in the financial industry working with technology leaders, you've spent a lot of your career leading people and hold a doctorate in strategic leadership where your research focused on how leaders can better and prevent burnout through more human ⁓ centered approaches. Heather, welcome to the mic.

Plug: Thank you so much for being a listener and watcher of the show. And now back to the episode.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: thank you having me. great intro that covers a chunk of that. The other thing that I add in that I went to ⁓ a university that required to integrate some of religion or spirituality. ⁓ I went with spirituality. So my burnout research, addition to the leadership looks at the intersection with spirituality. which is really interesting because there's a lot of grounded science-based data around that, which was just such a fun thing to learn about. And then just other fun fact, ⁓ here in North Carolina and I have four fur babies. I love them all dearly. ⁓

Paul Leon: like that. Very good. two cats, two dogs kind of story or is there more there?

Dr. Heather Kidwell: It's just the four cats and then a husband and a husband. Absolutely. Yes.

Paul Leon: No, and a husband. Okay. So the cats are cleaner. Correct? Yeah. No, I that. So I want to kind of peel the onion with you here today, because your doctorate is in strategic leadership. And I find that term is to define for a lot of companies. So ⁓ because you have PhD in it, because you are well founded in this, plus what we discussed your many, years in the financial industry, would you ⁓ an expert define strategic leadership in 2026 for who may be new to management or new to people leadership? Let's start there, if that's fair.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: Yeah, and that's a great question. so and this is in my words, I'm sure the school has a big fancy, blah, blah word salad that they would use, but I'm going to go a little more real with it. So for me, strategic leadership is approaching leading others, not as a manager, like a task manager that you do this, you do this, you do this, and then you babysit that they've got it done. but it's leading in a way that is intentional to what you're trying to accomplish with the other people. sure that they are part of your shared vision, making sure that you can communicate with them, making sure that they're part of whatever change is happening, whatever ⁓ goals being achieved versus it being pushed to them. the strategic part becomes more about the intentionality ⁓ of making that you're considering the people, the workforce is so just different right now. You've got people that are in their 50s and 60s, then you've got people in their ⁓ ⁓ those groups are very different because the 20 year olds grew up with technology being part of life, ⁓ the 60 year olds, they didn't iPhones when they were in fourth, fifth grade or anything like that. it's a really broad and you have to be strategic and intentional on who you're working with.

Paul Leon: .

Dr. Heather Kidwell: And then it's different than managing. It's that more bringing people along and not so much making them do stuff because you want them to do it, but actually having it be their shared vision and their goal. And it's everyone growing together.

Paul Leon: I want to poke at something you said there, if I may have your permission to do that, Heather. You said there's a difference between management and leadership, if I heard you correctly. think sometimes we blur lines ⁓ those two definitions. Maybe could put some on the ground on why it's different, because I think people will look at the term management and they'll look at the term leadership and go, aren't they kind of the same? So maybe if we could

Dr. Heather Kidwell: Mm-hmm.

Paul Leon: put some guardrails around these two words and these two lanes. Management in one lane, leadership in another lane. And let's define that together. Well, you are the expert, so you'll define it and I'll learn from you.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: Yeah. Perfect. And poke holes if anything doesn't sit right. But let me start by saying that there is a place for both management and leadership and most leaders, especially in large companies, are going to do both. one is bad or wrong. It's the combination of the two that becomes an art ⁓ of who is as a leader. So the management piece is the stuff that you kind of learn like in school. or maybe is a little more natural. hey, team, I need you to go do A, B, and C, make sure it gets done. It's almost like project management there's a person at the top that says, these are the things, here are our deadlines, rah rah team, let's go. Maybe the team provides some input to those milestones along the way, but it's really that one person that is managing that all of those things get done. it's literally the act of managing that work. gets done, it's work and task oriented. Leadership becomes more where it's about the human involved. understanding what drives people, it's helping people learn through where they want to go when they grow up, what growing their career, understanding that, we need to do these tasks, but maybe Sally and Joe are better at these kinds of things, and they really want to grow in this. So I'm going to let them kind of take the charge here. ⁓ And maybe they get to manage little pieces of it here and there. ⁓ a lot more delegation in the ⁓ of work and tasks in leadership in a way that you grow the team around you. So if you're thinking like career growth, increasing their satisfaction, understanding what drives them, that's the leadership side. If you're getting stuff done, which sometimes you just have to as a manager, it's like, okay, team, we're doing this and you got to do it. This what's happening. ⁓ That's fine, that's more that management, the work piece. So that's kind of where those guardrails set.

Paul Leon: That's fair. And I want to, I'm going to keep going deeper on your expertise in this topic, because one, I'm a nerd for it. And two, a lot of people don't know this about people who get a doctorate is that only 1 % of the population actually ever achieved that, which is why this is very valuable for those who may be new to Heather or ⁓

Dr. Heather Kidwell: Yeah.

Paul Leon: have never had an opportunity to conversate with her. I want to give you a stat that I came across in finishing my master's in business administration recently. it's something we learned actually in the last class we took was strategic management. So just why this conversation fits so well. But the stat was that 80 % of ⁓ career professionals do not want to go into management. ⁓ is a very strong stat, I believe.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: Mm-hmm.

Paul Leon: To my recollection, it comes from Society of Human Resources when they pool and they survey their data. Based on that what do you feel is going on ⁓ as to why many young professionals are not going in to management? it that, there a fear there? Is there something from your doctorate studies that kind of highlights why this trend is starting to happen? I'm just curious if you'd want to speak to that data point in your professional perspective.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: absolutely. so not so much in my doctoral studies, but in my history in the corporate world, when led organizations, I definitely had people that were high performers. And they were like, we just want to do stuff. I just want to get my hands dirty. I want to dig in and do the work. And they just absolutely didn't want to go into management because they felt that there would be a disconnect because managers ⁓ often, you're managing leading, you're not doing the project. So I'm managing ⁓ housework, actually, it's probably a pleasant example, but ⁓ let's that I love housework for some reason. ⁓ And I'm managing it, managing the team doing that, I'm the one that's sweeping. I'm not the one folding the laundry. I'm not the one that's ⁓ maybe setting the fresh flowers out. And maybe I love setting fresh flowers out and dusting because it's meditative for me. So you disconnect from that. And then I also hear a lot of people that are in management take a step back. I did so myself, I moved parallel into a really senior individual contributor role, where ⁓ I able to do work and be in connection with the people. Because when you get one level, levels removed from the people doing the work, if you happen be a human centered person,

Paul Leon: Hmm.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: you start to feel that disconnect where it starts to become more and you hand it down and you don't really know, you don't get to have the conversations and hear how people are doing and know how people's dogs are and their cats and their family. And, you know, some of that stuff that drives, the, like the extroverts like me, I'm like, I want to know all the things about all the people. ⁓ so I think that's some of it. it's, playing out in a interesting way for the people that are getting. pushed a little bit into management. creating some interesting dynamics, I think, in management and leadership right now.

Paul Leon: what's of the most pleasant experiences if you had to pick one that comes top of mind from your time ⁓ in corporate world that this once really resonated you and found your passion the work you're doing currently,

Dr. Heather Kidwell: honestly, I that ⁓ transition that talked about when I moved from leading an organization in a large bank, I moved into individual role ⁓ and I basically down like four layers in the organization and I got to really dig in and do stuff and lead transformation, cultural transformation. And I feel like my were part of, my voice were part of the change that was happening around us. so satisfying and what drove me into my doctorate, I was really burned out, which is part of why I moved. But I had learned that I had kind of disconnected from what I really cared about. So then as a mentor with other people, I would always advise them, are you going to work? What's your why? And reconnect to that. if that's lead, and if you can do that, why in leadership? Awesome, because, you let's face it, to climb the ladder to get the...

Paul Leon: All right.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: bigger dollars, you have to manage people. So if that's part of your strategy, you tap out at the individual and you have to start managing people or go do your own thing. But I would say that reconnecting with myself and then mentoring others was really great. And that's really what triggered the whole doctoral journey for

Paul Leon: When you were managing people and helping people define their why, what were some common denominator things you heard resonated you and what were some best answers that question when people would define their why? Because I know sometimes I would ask that question and people, there seems to somewhat general is what I experience. I wonder if you had a different perspective there or if there was, it's a good answer.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: Mm-hmm.

Paul Leon: to question. Maybe it's what I'm trying to get at. It's in like, what is your why? What would you define as a good answer versus a okay answer? Like good, better, best framework. We can go there if that's fair.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: Yeah. Yeah, perfect. So good, better, best. So good is you actually have something to answer. And you just say whatever it is. Because some people don't have it. They're just like, I don't know. It's a paycheck. Maybe it is a paycheck. And if that's your why, not shaming or yucking anyone's yum, if that's what you're going to work for, do it. Own it.

Paul Leon: Yeah. Ha ha. Yeah.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: better would be you've done a little bit of pause. You've done some exploration. You're thinking about what brings you joy outside of work and how can you honor that inside of work? Maybe you've done a little bit of digging into your personality. You've like Gallup strength finders or Myers-Briggs or one of those, personality tools that gives you some insight on how you're naturally wired. And you've thought about it in a minute. So that's, that's, better. The best answer in my book is really getting honest with yourself and just sitting down and saying, what do I really want to come to work for? And is this job something that I can do? Using myself as the example, I could have continued to lead that organization. We were doing big things. There were 6,000 people across it that were impacted by the decisions that I made. And was I good at it? I think so. I'm political savvy, not so much because I'm an open book, which it doesn't do good for ⁓ and politics. Not my strength because I give the answers away too easy. But when I was truly honest with myself and was like, OK, I made it on paper. Is this really what I want to do? The answer no. And I was willing to make the changes to reconnect with myself. But it took like a year of really insight, looking at those different tools,

Paul Leon: Yeah. Hmm.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: So the best answer is the one probably it's going to take some time, which I know nobody really likes to hear that everyone wants the answers right now. if you're inundated, you want something right now and you want like an AI, like get on get on an AI and it thought buddy, don't ask it what to ⁓ tell you what to do AI is it's just a another tool. ⁓ But you could talk about really like drawing and flower arrangements and coloring and how can I do this at a large bank and they're going to be like, ⁓ Corporate events is the space for you. Perfect. Tell me more. know, so you can dig in without burning the whole village down and leaving, leaving life behind.

Paul Leon: Hmm. Yeah. I think it's interesting that you said you had to come down a few levels. I feel that there must have been a certain and I'm going to go a little deeper with you. And if you're not comfortable on this question, you can push back. I don't want to make anybody ever uncomfortable Heather on this podcast or us in general. I feel if you have to come down levels in the career ladder. That is kind of a mentally hard transition. I'm sure there's like those internal thoughts. What was that in that decision? Number one and number two, if so, what justifications did you to say this will give me a more fulfilling life despite this kind of like when wager options? I don't know if that weird word salad made sense the way I worded it or if that confused you.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: think so. will say absolutely yes, there was a lot of tough choices involved. And the way I think you're asking like how did that show up and like how did I navigate those? that?

Paul Leon: Well, let's frame it like, so for example, I feel even though I gave you that data point earlier that 80 % don't want to go, there's a 20 % that says they do. The rarity of people who want to level up, who want more, maybe competitive in nature. And I feel there's a population of people here. I went down to a contributor role because I wanted to live a more career fulfilling life.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Paul Leon: is I would assume there are some mental challenges with that because statuses go down. Maybe like this is just assumptions I'm making. You can tell me now. Statuses go down. And I and like I was listening to a podcast a woman led podcast earlier today and the woman I forget her name, but she was saying like it's really hard for women in the workplace because, ⁓ they're the ones when they kids, their careers suffer.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: Yeah.

Paul Leon: They have to they're the ones who typically take a step back to get political, but I feel there is some stuff in the media ⁓ unfortunately feels like it's targeting women more than men. And want to be very clear, I think you're a very strong, smart, professional woman. So to take steps back willingly. I feel somebody who's ambitious would say, well,

Dr. Heather Kidwell: Yeah Mm-hmm.

Paul Leon: Why would you do that? I wouldn't do that. But here's why you did it and why it was a good decision for somebody who may be at that crossroads that you were at when you made that decision. does that make it a little more clear to the way I framed it or is that weird? Okay. Yeah.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: Mm-hmm. Yes, no, that makes sense. So, ⁓ so there, there, there, I hear two nuggets in there. So there's one, the internal and then there's one, the external. will say that internally, I had a lot of shame that I felt like I had made it on paper. I like had an office with a window ⁓ I was up on the 14th floor and I had a team so all the things that when you're, when you're young going to going to school, you're like, yeah, someday I'm going to this, this, I wanted to lead. I really did. I was in that 20 % that was like, I to be the CTO of Disney. That was at one point my, my dream, which I'm glad that I didn't get there because I Charlotte a lot. but like, you I had big dreams. I really wanted to lead. And ⁓ as I there, found that

Paul Leon: Yeah

Dr. Heather Kidwell: what leadership looked like wasn't really what I thought it was. It's almost like being a teacher. in the public school system, you don't get to like hug the kids and be as like, you know, you have to be a little odd. And I was like, oh, well, I rather be individual so I can go in and ask the questions, how's your kids doing? But as a leader, if you're like, how are your kids doing? But then someone's like, oh, well, I'm pregnant. And then you're like, oh, well, now I've just asked a question and I have to make sure not to respond to this. it just inserts all this noise.

Paul Leon: Right.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: So there was a lot of internal shame. I felt like I maybe wasn't good enough to do what I had always dreamt about. I some external kind of shame. I always expected that my parents wanted me to be really successful. My husband wanted me to be really successful. Some of that they did want me to be successful, but it was for me, for what I wanted, not because they were telling me like, have to do these things. So I had that. then I did have some of my

Paul Leon: Right.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: And I guess my feminist friends come to mind, but feel like almost everyone supports equality and women. So, ⁓ like some of the people that are really focused on more women's were like, why would you do that when you were in a space? I one of two women in the leadership group. My manager was a woman as well. And she's since retired, but ⁓ I did have some people asking me that and they're like, well, are you sure you don't want to stick it out so that future women leaders can see that all those conversations about like how many women are in C-suite and these large companies. And while I do support that, and I think that's really important for me, it was a right choice because I was physically We were traveling all the time. I missed my cats. missed my I missed just so much. I was emotionally drained. I was always hitting in that burnout space. And then my why was really about people and making people do better things. And I was dealing with regulators and like all these people external to the company, not necessarily the people internal to the company. And I didn't have a chance to grow people's careers. I barely knew anything about the people that reported to me. I knew even less about the people that reported to them. And I knew nothing about anyone beyond that.

Paul Leon: Hmm. Hmm.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: And so I just felt like I was just, was doing the thing, but it wasn't my thing. And think by stepping aside allowed me to do two things. It allowed somebody that did want to do that thing and it was their why to step into that and be a stronger leader and a better example for those up and coming leaders that were maybe gonna grow into that space. And then it let me. ⁓ took me about a year and a half, it let me recover. It was like a bird with my broken little wing. And I actually left the organization because it was too weird to be a peer to people that I used to manage. And there was just all kinds of awkwardness there. So I left to a sister organization where it was like a kind of clean slate, but leveraged all my experience. then after that, I knew my why. So during that year of recovery was when I was

Paul Leon: Ha ha ha.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: really finding my why, because I had just the good why, where I was like, ⁓ yeah, I want to climb the ladder and be the head of blah, blah. So I started with a good why, wore myself out, and then I was like, ⁓ yeah, I'm not even going to go with the best, we're going to jump, or the better, I'm going to jump right to the best, we're going to take control of this. it's, life is just, I feel like life is just too short to spend the majority of the time we're awake being disconnected from ourselves.

Paul Leon: Okay ⁓ it's interesting good not interesting bad Heather that you use the word shame ⁓ and Why is that word word that comes to mind and two? How would you define shame for someone who may be struggling with

Dr. Heather Kidwell: Mm-hmm.

Paul Leon: to help them reframe and overcome shame if they're struggling with that in their day to day.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: Mmm. Yeah, so ⁓ gosh, so shame. Why is shame the first word that came to mind? I've never had anyone ask me that before, actually. think because I was, so for me, ⁓ ⁓ it's a mix of, it's mix of things for me. So if Webster dictionary lovers are out there, they might hear, they might be like, that's not the technical definition. But when I say it, I think it's a combination ⁓ of guilt, feeling like did something wrong, that then the shame comes in and says, well, you are wrong.

Paul Leon: Yeah.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: not did you do something wrong, you Heather are wrong. And I felt like I was letting a lot of people down because of some of those projected expectations. had all these things in my mind that I should do. it's like the, it was the old saying, I always heard this. So this might be a Midwest US thing, but it was like,

Paul Leon: Hmm. It's okay.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: Just because you can jump off a bridge doesn't mean you should jump off a bridge or have to, know? And, oh, if your friends jumped off the bridge, would you do it too? well, no, probably not. So that doesn't sound pleasant. But I was doing all the should things instead of the really what made sense. And some of that's due, I think, to the US education system. We are really focused on where do you go starting in high school? Where do you want to be when you grow up? Here's how you get into college. So some of it's

Paul Leon: Hmm. Sure.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: is external programming, but I've always been a high drive. I always wanted the gold stars. I always wanted to finish my homework first. I wanted to win it, Uno. I wanted to win it all the board games. So some of it's also internal. so when I say shame, it's more that I am wrong. I am probably doing the wrong thing. I'm letting people down. I am disappointing those who care about me. I'm probably gonna regret this and I am just a broken little human that I don't see that what I'm doing is wrong. But I'm gonna do it anyways because I feel like it might be right. So for me, that's what shame is.

Paul Leon: If you could go back to Heather going through that challenging time and you could talk to her but you can't tell that version of Heather it's you and you can't tell her that you're from the future, what would you need to hear to convince yourself that you don't necessarily need to feel shame and it's okay?

Dr. Heather Kidwell: Yeah. Mmm. so if I could go back, I would probably regurgitate a conversation that I was just fortunate enough to have that made me go ahead and just do it, even though I was struggling with that. I had somebody sit me down and she took me out to coffee, so I was away from the office and away from all the noise. We set our devices down and she was like, what is it that you wanna do? And I looked at her and I kind of teared up a little bit. was like, I really just want to be happy. I don't feel very happy. And she was like, that's beautiful, Heather. What is happy for you? And I didn't know. And of course, then I started crying because I like, I don't even know what happiness is anymore. and I'm already in the shame space. So was like, I am broken. I am a broken little human. So if I could add to that conversation, I think what I would go back.

Paul Leon: Yes. Okay.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: can tell me or anyone that's in that space is A, you're not a broken human. It's natural to get caught up in something. when we were kids, you get caught up in the energy of the playground and somebody falls off a swing and you're like, ⁓ man, we didn't mean anyone to fall off the swing, but we were just having so much fun. I would tell that person you're not a broken person and deserve to be happy you deserve joy. And you deserve to take the space to find out what happiness looks like in a way that's sustainable and supports all of your other life goals.

Paul Leon: That's a good answer. I like that. I want to segue a question I have for you. ⁓ is, ⁓ what's next? What's some important topics that maybe you're publishing content around? Heather, that's important to you that we need to discuss at this moment in the podcast and in our conversation.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: Yes. so actually that former question leads right into it. ⁓ So done. So ⁓ actually focusing on putting a name to things. One of the things that challenged me the most when I was going through burnout was labeling it. I it was maybe dementia because I couldn't think of words. I thought maybe it was anxiety because I couldn't sleep. ⁓ So I was fishing for the language and I learned through my doctoral studies that was burnout, little bit of spiritual exhaustion, which I mean, what I mean by that is more disconnect from your purpose, your why, So that's some of that spiritual space. For some people, it's religion. For some people, it's not. it's not a religious construct. But really what I'm focusing on is I've labeled a It's called convergent depletion syndrome. And what that is, is a mix ⁓ of ⁓

Paul Leon: Right. Yeah. Okay.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: the burnout, is a capacity challenge. So you're going, you're doing too much, you're pushing too hard, you're burning the candle on both sticks or both sides, whatever that, you know, whatever phrase you want to put, but you're like cognitively in your brain, wearing it yourself out, chasing other people's visions for you, whatever that is. It's the intersection of burnout with that spiritual exhaustion, your big why, your purpose. And then also a piece that's physical exhaustion and the medical industry, Eastern, Western medicine, all of them, they all agree that physical exhaustion is not awesome, but they tend to look at physical work and spiritual work as an answer to burnout, which is awesome, I'm sure a lot of people have heard you need to balance your mind, your body, your soul. I love balance. I'm not saying that they are wrong. They're absolutely right.

Paul Leon: Hmm.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: But you're depleted, if your mind and your body are depleted and you're like, yes, let's balance, that's like looking at an empty cup to pour water into another empty cup and there's nothing there. so when two or, all three of those combine, ⁓ the path of healing very, very different than if you just have one or the other. So I'm working on that framework so that I can.

Paul Leon: Yeah.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: get it out there and hopefully get it the clinical attention that it really deserves because it's bigger than a bread box to dig into that. one might not be able to answer the because maybe you're running on empty across all gauges and that's okay. It happens. It's a thing. It's a very common thing.

Paul Leon: Yeah. So convergent depletion syndrome, that's the definition. And could you speak to where you're publishing some content on And then for those who follow the show notes, I'll put some links to you'd like me to Heather, where you want me to also make it easy so can just click and go right to the

Dr. Heather Kidwell: Yes. So ⁓ I a free sub stack where I'm doing articles, I but writing as I go. So it started with my out of the corporate space and the things that I'm realizing. But this is where actually, think yesterday was when I, boop, here's the name that I'd been working on. But yeah, if you are in this, if it resonates and you're like, ⁓ that might be me. ⁓ I am not a medical doctor. can't actually tell people or diagnose, but do the research. And so if anyone wants to follow along on the sub stack, I absolutely would love that. It's a free subscription. and I would love to have conversation. If anyone goes there and like, ⁓ my gosh, this is me. Put a comment. I really would love to have the conversation because it takes more than one mind to really ⁓ dig into something just this deeply complex.

Paul Leon: when people work with you on average, they're starting to see results in six weeks, as we discussed, would you say that unconsciously you're already putting this into practice, the framework of convergent depletion syndrome? the world is built on people defining new and great and innovative ideas and terms. So I've never heard that term if I'm just being completely

Dr. Heather Kidwell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Paul Leon: real with you. if I said that to some people, they'd be like, what? Like, you know, ⁓ maybe if we frame it like, because it's fancy to me, and I even though like, like in school, I struggled, you know, like I struggled in school. ⁓ What someone follows sub stack? What's the pain that it's going to solve? And then if resonates with their pain,

Dr. Heather Kidwell: Probably, yes. Mm-hmm.

Paul Leon: What type solutions can take further with you? Maybe like after you follow my sub stack, if you're still struggling with this pain that convergent depletion syndrome can solve, here's level two of how we can get you the results faster and maybe level three, if that exists currently.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: So first, ⁓ yes, that is fancy. ⁓ People wouldn't know it is because it's ⁓ like this is hot off the presses. This just, you know, fairly new. ⁓ Yes. And so the the short version ⁓ is it's when so convergent because it's when are coming together. ⁓ I'm a love I love water. So when comes together, when the where the salt water and the freshwater me and I just I don't know. That's just kind of my

Paul Leon: Yeah, and it's innovative.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: my muse, if you will. But it's when that physical exhaustion, capacity exhaustion, and call it your purpose exhaustion, so you're disconnected from your why, ⁓ your and your physical body. When two or three of those things come together, that's when start to get into the territory of this. ⁓ And what specifically mean by, so your body, Like your body's probably worn out. And it's that ⁓

Paul Leon: Yeah.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: deep exhaustion that settles in that going on a vacation or just simply resting doesn't really hit. Like it's something deeper than just like, ⁓ I just need a nap and I'll be good. That's this. I have a ⁓ six week program that people get to go through. ⁓ and they explore and I give them the language because again, I was lacking that. So I give them the language to express what's happening inside of them. And then the language to show, here's what my ideal support bench looks like. It's maybe 20 % of these Eastern modalities, because I really need to ground into myself. And then most of these clinical things because it's my body and I need nutrition and I need exercise.

Paul Leon: Hmm.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: And then after that, I have a virtual village of practitioners that actually help people. So I give them language, I arm them with the awareness, and then they go into the virtual village and they can say, Hey, I need some kind of this Eastern mindfulness space. But if you ask me to meditate, going to lose my mind. Who can have a conversation with me? And I've got practitioners that do all kinds of stuff in that space and a therapist and a medical doctor. So ⁓

Paul Leon: All right.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: So they have the support because again, I think it takes more than one person to even dig into this. It takes a whole village to really help, I think, fully support people. I try to make that as accessible as possible by using language. And then the practitioners have the same language that the people just went through the course. So everyone's at the same starting point and it's ⁓ just beautiful. And then the third part of your question was, what's that next step?

Paul Leon: Yeah.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: I have that that village the pro. I call it burn up like turn your light up burn it up ⁓ But I yeah, but then I also do summits and retreats are more intensive So if you really need to sit down and focus and dig in I have some of those that I offer and then for companies for managers and stuff I ⁓ take my program and I slice it into

Paul Leon: Yeah, no, I like that.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: half-day intensives for managers or half-day intentions for HR professionals So ⁓ I'm able to it and apply it in whatever way just really helps serve those around me in a way that I really just want to make everyone's day just a little bit better. Because we work so much, like I said, 40 hours a week. If you're lucky, only 40 hours. It's just way too to spend just

Paul Leon: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: joyful, that takes a toll on your body and your lifespan and the people around you. I think when you help people, helps their whole ecosystem and that's really what I think will all do.

Paul Leon: Yeah. So you're free to your substack and then you have half day webinars to help them get the results further. We'll give them additional tools, virtual assessment packages help give them better work-life balance through your burn-up program, which I actually liked that. It's very cool. Good name, by the way. Very cool.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Thank you.

Paul Leon: we've covered a lot, I feel, and it's very valuable. I just want to say thank you for your time. But what haven't we discussed, Heather, that is important. We can pick from strategic leadership. We can pick from humanity and performative nature, which is also a topic you specialize in.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Paul Leon: Or we can go back to convergent depletion syndrome. What's an important question we haven't put on the table yet that we should ask now and peel the onion around together?

Dr. Heather Kidwell: the one thing we haven't really touched on is the performative nature ⁓ of the corporate environments that in and how that leads into maybe pushing people into management versus leadership and some of that.

Paul Leon: Okay. Well, let's go there. define performative nature and what that means first and then go deeper as far as down this rabbit hole we can go together.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: All right. Yeah, so performative nature. What I mean by that is everything centers around your performance or your output. So think about in work, more widgets you create, the more whatever you do, the more your manager is like, hey, good job, the more likely are you to get a raise, the better. If there's a bonus structure, it's probably tied to how many widgets ⁓ created or whatever. So that's performative nature. It's all around. What can we get out of one person per hour and what is that return on, I invested in this person for hour, what am I getting back versus happiness, sustainability, some of those other things.

Paul Leon: Right. if I heard you correctly, performative nature is maximizing one's individual's talents in the workplace is how I define it. And like plain language, is that kind of an easy way to explain it? Like in like a child, if I was to explain it to a kid.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: Yeah, yes ⁓ ⁓ so I would say that the success your job is centered around maximizing your, your ability to do work. So it's, it's the focus of the company and that's what they're, that's what they reward. The reward system is based on that as well.

Paul Leon: Okay. The focus is on the company. Interesting. And I feel like I should know this term. I just haven't had an intimate relationship with it. why that important to a professional or a new manager? Number one. Number two, if somebody hasn't thought about the term performative nature, why do they need to think about it now? So that ⁓ they can have a more fruitful career in your professional perspective.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: where I it come into value and where I've experienced it coming into value is when you're in an organization or an environment that is looking ⁓ at your your performance, and that's what everything is centered around, very often people are put in a position where they either have to choose happiness or success. And if it to the end of the day, and let's say that you're the sole provider for your family, ⁓ and you've got bills to pay and you've got, you know, layer on these, you're gonna choose to pay your bills versus being happy. Or you're going to choose, maybe you have to be a manager to get the next raise because you can't go any further and you don't wanna be a manager, but you want that raise because it helps with, insert whatever financial goals you have. People will choose to go into a role that they don't necessarily want for that.

Paul Leon: Okay. Hmm. Hmm.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: for that bump that was unless you do this that the company says you have to do to, and then joy and your happiness hopefully go along. at many times people that I've seen between the two. And I think that's something that more leaders need to think about because it impacts people. And then also tells people what you see their value is, is not as a human, but as a resource that ⁓ performs and gives output. So then when they can't give output, they start to get scared I can't deliver for one week because I've got a family emergency, am I going to lose my job? Is this going to impact my ability for the raise next year? And it just adds a bunch fear and unnecessary noise into ⁓ what employees are dealing with in to just regular life.

Paul Leon: Hmm. Hmm. What's a lot of noise you've heard from employees in your 20 years working studies, wherever, if ⁓ silence this of noise, they would automatically by default live a more fruitful life.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: I say the noise attached to the word should. ⁓ Yes, because that judgment. So you should do this. You should do that. Everyone has an on what you should do. But at the end of the day, we're the only people that are living our life that even if we have a like my husband and are together a good chunk of the time, but I'm still the only one that's in my

Paul Leon: should. Yeah.

Dr. Heather Kidwell: mind and all of that. the attached to you should, they are noise, not that you have to ignore them. People mean with the best of intentions. But if you're driving everything, your career, your life, all of that based around what you should do, then you're very disconnecting from what you ⁓ want to do must do for your overall well-being.