In my conversation with Dr. Heather Kidwell, she shared her expertise in strategic leadership. Her insights will help newer managers avoid burnout. Learn strategies to reconnect with your purpose to overcome a challenging work environment.
Follow Dr. Heather Kidwell
An Article to Overcome Burnout
https://humanitydrivenleadership.substack.com/p/its-not-just-burnout-its-something
Learn About The BurnUP Program
https://www.humanitydrivenleadership.com/the-burnup-sm-method
https://www.linkedin.com/in/heatherkidwell/
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Dr. Heather Kidwell
01:53 Defining Strategic Leadership
04:46 Management vs. Leadership
07:32 Trends in Young Professionals and Management
09:21 Personal Experiences in Corporate Leadership
11:07 Defining Your 'Why'
13:48 Navigating Career Transitions
16:30 Understanding Shame
20:18 Finding Happiness and Purpose
25:18 Future Focus: Convergent Depletion Syndrome
26:33 Understanding Burnout and Exhaustion
28:25 Convergent Depletion Syndrome Explained
30:27 Exploring Solutions and Support Systems
33:59 The Role of Spirituality in Leadership
34:49 The Performative Nature of Corporate Environments
Legal Disclaimer
Leonsolutions, LLC, and the content it produces are for educational purposes; your results may vary. No guarantee of results is claimed. The publisher of this content is not responsible for any actions taken or not taken as a result of reading, watching, or listening to our content.
Transcript
Plug (Paul Leon): Paul Leon here. I want to take my hat off for a moment and speak directly to you, the listener or watcher of our show here at The Manager’s Mic. Thank you so much for being a consumer of the show, and I want to take our relationship a step further.
When you join our newsletter at TheManagersMic.com, I am going to give you a free resource called a selling script to skyrocket sales.
Paul Leon: Dr. Heather Kidwell, you help high-achieving individuals reconnect with themselves, stop chasing external stress solutions, and build a sustainable way of living and working aligned with their needs. In as little as six weeks, people who work with you feel more aligned, focused, and at ease.
With around 20 years of experience in the financial industry working with technology leaders, you have spent a lot of your career leading people. You also hold a doctorate in strategic leadership, where your research focused on how leaders can better prevent burnout through more human-centered approaches. Heather, welcome to the mic.
Plug: Thank you so much for being a listener and watcher of the show. And now, back to the episode.
Dr. Heather Kidwell: Thank you for having me. Great intro—that covers a chunk of it. The other thing I will add is that I went to a university that required us to integrate some form of religion or spirituality. I went with spirituality.
So my burnout research, in addition to leadership, looks at the intersection with spirituality, which is really interesting because there is a lot of grounded, science-based data around that. It was such a fun thing to learn about.
And one other fun fact: I am here in North Carolina, and I have four fur babies. I love them all dearly.
Paul Leon: I like that. Very good. Is it a two cats, two dogs kind of story, or is there more there?
Dr. Heather Kidwell: It is four cats, and then a husband… and a husband. Absolutely, yes.
Paul Leon: And a husband. Okay. So the cats are cleaner, correct? Yeah. I like that.
I want to peel the onion with you today because your doctorate is in strategic leadership, and I find that term is hard to define for a lot of companies. So, because you have a PhD in it, plus your many years in the financial industry, would you define strategic leadership in 2026 for someone who may be new to management or new to people leadership? Let us start there, if that is fair.
Dr. Heather Kidwell: Yeah, and that is a great question. This is in my words—I'm sure the school has a big fancy word-salad definition—but I’m going to keep it real.
For me, strategic leadership is approaching leading others not as a task manager—“you do this, you do this, you do this,” and then you babysit that it got done—but leading in a way that is intentional about what you are trying to accomplish with other people.
It means making sure they are part of a shared vision, making sure you can communicate with them, and making sure they are part of whatever change is happening or whatever goal is being achieved, versus it being pushed onto them.
The strategic part becomes about intentionality—considering people. The workforce is so different right now. You have people in their 50s and 60s, and you have people in their 20s. Those groups are very different because the 20-year-olds grew up with technology as part of life, and the 60-year-olds did not have iPhones in fourth or fifth grade. It is broad, and you have to be strategic and intentional about who you are working with.
And it is different than managing. It is bringing people along—not making them do stuff because you want them to do it—but having it be their shared vision and their goal, with everyone growing together.
Paul Leon: I want to poke at something you said, if I may. You said there is a difference between management and leadership. I think sometimes we blur those lines. Could you put some guardrails around those two words—management in one lane and leadership in another lane? You are the expert, so you define it and I will learn from you.
Dr. Heather Kidwell: Yeah. Perfect. And poke holes if anything does not sit right.
Let me start by saying there is a place for both management and leadership, and most leaders—especially in large companies—are going to do both. Neither one is bad or wrong. The combination is what becomes an art.
The management piece is the stuff you learn in school, or maybe it is more natural: “Hey team, I need you to do A, B, and C. Make sure it gets done.” It is almost like project management. There is a person at the top who sets the things and the deadlines, and the team might provide input along the way, but that person is managing that the work gets done. It is task-oriented.
Leadership is more about the human involved. It is understanding what drives people. It is helping people learn where they want to go in their career, understanding that we need to do these tasks, but maybe Sally and Joe are better at certain things and they want to grow in that area, so you let them take the lead. Maybe they get to manage smaller pieces, too. There is more delegation in a way that grows the team around you.
If you are thinking career growth, satisfaction, and understanding what drives people, that is leadership. If you are thinking, “We just need to get this done,” that is more management. That is where those guardrails sit.
Paul Leon: That is fair. I want to keep going deeper on your expertise because, one, I am a nerd for this, and two, not many people know that only 1% of the population achieves a doctorate. That is why your perspective is so valuable for anyone new to you.
I want to share a stat I came across while finishing my MBA. In our last class—strategic management—we learned that 80% of career professionals do not want to go into management. That is a strong stat. To my recollection, it comes from the Society for Human Resource Management when they pool and survey data.
Based on that, what do you feel is going on? Why are so many young professionals not going into management? Is it fear? Is there something from your studies that highlights why this trend is happening?
Dr. Heather Kidwell: Absolutely. Not so much from my doctoral studies, but from my corporate experience leading organizations.
I had high performers who said, “I just want to do stuff. I want to get my hands dirty. I want to do the work.” They did not want management because they felt there would be a disconnect. Often, as a manager, you are managing and leading—you are not doing the project work.
Here is a simple example. Let us say I love housework for some reason. If I am managing the housework, I am not the one sweeping, folding laundry, or setting fresh flowers out—maybe those are the things I love because they are meditative. When you move into management, you can disconnect from the parts you enjoy.
I also hear a lot of people in management take a step back. I did that myself. I moved laterally into a senior individual contributor role where I could do work and stay connected to people. When you get multiple levels removed from the people doing the work, and you are a human-centered person, you feel that disconnect. You do not get the conversations. You do not hear how people are doing or what is going on in their lives. As an extrovert, I want to know all the things about all the people.
So I think that is part of it. And when people get pushed into management, it creates some interesting dynamics in leadership right now.
Paul Leon: What is one of the most pleasant experiences from your time in the corporate world that really resonated with you and helped you find the passion for the work you are doing now?
Dr. Heather Kidwell: Honestly, it was that transition. I moved from leading an organization in a large bank into a senior individual contributor role. I went down multiple layers, and I got to dig in and do work—leading transformation and cultural change.
I felt like my voice was part of the change happening around us. It was satisfying, and it drove me toward my doctorate. I was really burned out, which is part of why I moved. I had learned I was disconnected from what I really cared about.
As a mentor, I started advising people: “What is your why? Reconnect with it.” If your why can be fulfilled through leadership, awesome—because to climb the ladder and get the bigger dollars, you often have to manage people. If that is part of your strategy, you tap out at the individual contributor level unless you manage people or go do your own thing. Reconnecting with myself—and mentoring others—was really what triggered my doctoral journey.
Paul Leon: When you were helping people define their why, what were common patterns you heard? And what is a “good” answer versus an “okay” answer? Maybe a good-better-best framework.
Dr. Heather Kidwell: Yeah, perfect.
“Good” is you actually have an answer. Some people do not—they say, “I do not know. It is a paycheck.” And maybe it is a paycheck. No shame. If that is your why, own it.
“Better” is you have paused and explored. You think about what brings you joy outside of work and how to honor that inside work. Maybe you have used tools like Gallup StrengthsFinder, Myers-Briggs, or similar tools to understand how you are wired, and you have thought about it.
“Best” is getting honest with yourself: “What do I really want to come to work for? Is this job something I can do sustainably?” Using myself as an example, I could have kept leading that organization. On paper, I made it. Was I good at it? I think so. But when I got honest, the answer was no—it was not what I wanted. I was willing to make changes to reconnect with myself. It took about a year of insight and reflection.
People want answers right now. They want AI to tell them what to do. AI is a tool, but you still have to explore. You can dig in without burning the whole village down and leaving your life behind.
Paul Leon: You mentioned coming down a few levels on the career ladder. That seems like a mentally hard transition. If you are comfortable sharing, what internal challenges came with that decision? And what helped you justify that it would lead to a more fulfilling life, even if it looked like a step back?
Dr. Heather Kidwell: Yes, absolutely. There were tough choices. I hear two nuggets in your question: the internal and the external.
Internally, I felt a lot of shame. I had “made it” on paper. I had an office with a window on the 14th floor, I had a team—everything that, when you are young and in school, you think you are supposed to achieve.
I was in that 20% who wanted to level up. At one point, I wanted to be the CTO of Disney. I had big dreams. But when I got there, leadership did not look like what I thought.
It is a bit like being a teacher. You do not always get to do the thing you love most—you have to operate inside a lot of constraints. I realized I would rather be in an individual role where I could ask people questions, connect with them, and truly engage.
There was also external pressure. I had expectations in my head—what my parents wanted, what my husband wanted. They did want me to be successful, but for me, not because they were forcing me.
I also had people ask, “Why would you step back? You are one of only two women in the leadership group.” I support more women in leadership and I know representation matters, but for me it was the right decision. I was traveling all the time. I missed my cats. I missed my life. I was emotionally drained and always near burnout.
My why was about people—helping people do better things. But I was dealing with regulators and external stakeholders, not growing the people inside the company. I barely knew the people who reported to me, and I knew even less about the people beyond them.
Stepping aside did two things. It allowed someone whose why matched that role to step in and be a stronger leader. And it gave me time to recover. It took about a year and a half. I eventually left because it was awkward being a peer to people I used to manage. I moved to a sister organization for a clean slate while leveraging my experience.
That recovery period helped me move from a “good why” (“climb the ladder”) to the best why—taking control of my life. Life is too short to spend most of the time we are awake disconnected from ourselves.
Paul Leon: You used the word “shame.” Why does that word come to mind? And how would you define shame for someone who is struggling with it day to day, so they can reframe and overcome it?
Dr. Heather Kidwell: Great question. I have never had anyone ask me that.
For me, shame is a mix of guilt—feeling like you did something wrong—and then shame adds, “You are wrong.” Not “you made a mistake,” but “you are the mistake.”
I felt like I was letting people down because of projected expectations. I had all these “should” thoughts—what I should do. Some of that is external programming, like the education system pushing you toward the next thing. Some of it is internal. I have always been high-drive. I wanted gold stars. I wanted to win Uno. I wanted to win the board games.
So shame, for me, was: “I am wrong. I am disappointing people. I am going to regret this. I am broken, and I cannot even see what I am doing.” But I still felt like it might be right.
Paul Leon: If you could go back to Heather during that time and talk to her—without telling her you are her or that you are from the future—what would she need to hear to not feel shame and to know it is okay?
Dr. Heather Kidwell: I would repeat a conversation that helped me.
Someone took me out for coffee, away from the office and the noise. We set our devices down. She asked, “What do you want to do?” I teared up and said, “I just want to be happy. I do not feel happy.”
She said, “That is beautiful. What is happy for you?” And I did not know. Then I cried more because I did not even know what happiness was anymore. I was already in shame, so I thought, “I am broken.”
If I could add to that conversation, I would say: You are not a broken human. It is natural to get caught up in something. You deserve to be happy. You deserve joy. And you deserve the space to find out what happiness looks like in a sustainable way that supports your life goals.
Paul Leon: That is a good answer. I want to segue. What is next? What important topics are you publishing content around that we should discuss now?
Dr. Heather Kidwell: That question leads right into it. One of the biggest challenges when I was going through burnout was labeling it. I thought maybe it was dementia because I could not think of words. I thought maybe it was anxiety because I could not sleep. I was searching for language.
Through my doctoral studies, I learned it was burnout and also spiritual exhaustion—meaning disconnect from purpose and why. For some people that is religion; for others it is not. It is not inherently a religious construct.
What I am focusing on now is naming something I call “convergent depletion syndrome.” It is the intersection of burnout (a capacity challenge—doing too much and pushing too hard), spiritual or purpose exhaustion (disconnect from your why), and physical exhaustion.
A lot of approaches talk about balancing mind, body, and soul. I love balance. That is not wrong. But when you are depleted across all three, “balance” can sound like pouring from an empty cup into another empty cup.
When two or all three of those forms of depletion combine, the path of healing is different than when you only have one. I am working on this framework to get it out there and, hopefully, get it the clinical attention it deserves.
Paul Leon: Where are you publishing content on this? And for those who follow the show notes, I will put links wherever you want.
Dr. Heather Kidwell: I have a free Substack where I write articles as I go. It started with insights from leaving corporate and what I am realizing. Yesterday, I finally shared the name I have been working on.
If this resonates and you think, “That might be me,” I am not a medical doctor, so I cannot diagnose. But I do the research. If anyone wants to follow along, I would love that. It is a free subscription. And I would love conversation. If you read it and think, “This is me,” leave a comment. It takes more than one mind to dig into something this complex.
Paul Leon: People who work with you see results in about six weeks. Are you already applying this convergent depletion syndrome framework in your work? Also, if someone follows your Substack, what pain does it solve? And what are the next-level ways they can work with you—level two, level three?
Dr. Heather Kidwell: Yes—probably. And yes, it is new, so people would not know it yet.
The short version: “convergent” means multiple things coming together. I love water, so I think about where saltwater and freshwater meet—my muse, if you will.
This is when physical exhaustion, capacity exhaustion, and purpose exhaustion come together. The body piece is a deep exhaustion where a vacation or just resting does not really fix it. It is deeper than “I need a nap.”
I have a six-week program where people explore this. I give them language—because I lacked language—to express what is happening inside them. Then we identify what an ideal support bench looks like.
Maybe 20% is Eastern modalities—mindfulness and grounding into yourself—and a larger portion is clinical: nutrition, exercise, and other supports for the body.
After that, I have a virtual village of practitioners. I arm people with awareness and language, then connect them to support. They can say, “I need mindfulness, but if you ask me to meditate, I will lose my mind. Who can talk with me?” I have practitioners across that space, plus a therapist and a medical doctor.
Then I also offer summits and retreats for deeper, more intensive work. For companies, I take my program and slice it into half-day intensives for managers or HR professionals so it can be applied in different ways.
I want to make everyone’s day a little better. We work so much—40 hours a week if you are lucky. It is too much time to spend disconnected. It takes a toll on your body, your lifespan, and the people around you. When you help a person, you help their whole ecosystem.
Paul Leon: So you have a free Substack, then half-day intensives, plus your “Burn Up” program and a virtual village. I like “Burn Up.” That is a great name.
Dr. Heather Kidwell: Thank you.
Paul Leon: We covered a lot, and it is valuable. Thank you for your time. What have we not discussed that is important? We can pick strategic leadership, humanity and performative nature, or go back to convergent depletion syndrome. What is an important question we have not asked yet?
Dr. Heather Kidwell: The one thing we have not really touched on is the performative nature of corporate environments and how that can push people into management versus leadership.
Paul Leon: Okay. Let us go there. Define “performative nature” first, then we will go as deep as we can.
Dr. Heather Kidwell: Performative nature means everything centers around performance or output. Think about work: the more widgets you create, the more praise you get, the more likely you get a raise. If there is a bonus structure, it is often tied to output. That is performative nature. It is about return: “I invested in this person for an hour—what am I getting back?” versus happiness and sustainability.
Paul Leon: If I heard you correctly, performative nature is maximizing an individual’s output in the workplace. Is that a plain-language way to explain it, like to a kid?
Dr. Heather Kidwell: Yes. I would say success at your job is centered around maximizing your ability to do work. That is what the company focuses on, and that is what the reward system is based on.
Paul Leon: Why is that important for a professional or a new manager? And if someone has not thought about the term performative nature, why should they think about it now so they can have a more fruitful career?
Dr. Heather Kidwell: Where it becomes valuable is when you are in an environment that is centered around performance. People often feel they must choose happiness or success.
If you are the sole provider and you have bills, you will choose paying bills over being happy. Or you might need to become a manager to get the next raise because you cannot go further as an individual contributor. Even if you do not want management, you might take it for financial goals.
That impacts people, and it signals what the organization values—humans or resources that produce output. When someone cannot deliver for a week because of a family emergency, they get scared: “Will I lose my job? Will this impact my raise?” It adds fear and noise to life.
Paul Leon: What is common “noise” you have heard from employees over your career that, if we could silence it, would help them live a more fruitful life?
Dr. Heather Kidwell: The noise attached to the word “should.” That judgment. Everyone has an opinion about what you should do. People mean well, but if you build your life around “should,” you disconnect from what you want and what you must do for your well-being.
Founder of Humanity Driven Leadership
I help high-achieving individuals reconnect with themselves, stop chasing external stress solutions, and build a sustainable way of living and working aligned with their needs. In as little as six weeks, people feel more aligned, focused, and at ease.
With around 20 years of experience in the financial industry working with technology leaders, I’ve spent much of my career leading people and navigating high-performance environments firsthand. I also hold a Doctorate in Strategic Leadership, where my research focused on how leaders can better address and prevent burnout through more human-centered approaches. Today, I bring that blend of real-world leadership experience and research into the way I support people in creating lives that actually work for them.
