Why Teams Underperform (and How to Fix It)

Plug: Paul Leon here. thank you so much for being consumer of the show and I want to take our relationship a step further. When you join our newsletter at the TheManagers Mic.com website I'm going to give you a free resource called a selling script to sky rocket sales.

Bryan Powell: have with us today, Brian Powell and Tom Reynolds. Brian Powell, you are a leadership coach who helps organizations turn ⁓ into sustained high performance whose work focuses on building trust, clarity, and shared ownership within teams to drive measurable results ⁓ complex high pressure environments. You hold a master's degree in organizational leadership from Colorado State University.

Paul Leon: have with us today, Brian Powell and Tom Reynolds. Brian Powell, you are a leadership coach who helps organizations turn potential into ⁓ sustained high performance whose work focuses on building clarity, and shared ownership within teams to drive measurable results in complex high pressure environments. You hold a master's degree in organizational leadership from Colorado State University and are completing a PhD in performance psychology at Grand Canyon University, where you research centers on team effectiveness. You're a professional certified coach for international coaching federation and has logged more than 5,000 coaching hours with executives and leadership teams across fortune 100 organizations,

Bryan Powell: and are completing a PhD in performance psychology at Grand Canyon University, where you research centers on team effectiveness. Your professional certified coach for International Coaching Federation has logged more than 5,000 coaching hours with executives and leadership teams across Fortune 100 organizations, include Wells Fargo, Merrill Lynch, and Crown Castle.

Paul Leon: Wells Fargo, Merrill Lynch and Crown Castle. You integrate leadership psychology, behavioral assessment and stakeholder-based coaching, deliver measurable business impact and you are a contributor to the Forbes Coaches Council to serve in leadership roles that advance the coaching profession. Tom Reynolds, you are a business psychologist, executive coach and trusted advisor.

Plug: Thank you so much for being a listener and watcher of the show. And now back to the episode.

Bryan Powell: You integrate leadership psychology, assessment, and stakeholder-based coaching to deliver measurable business impact. And you are a contributor to the Forbes Co-design Council to serve in leadership roles that advance the coaching profession. guests, Tom Reynolds, you are a business psychologist, executive coach, and trusted advisor. You're senior leaders across industries, including

Paul Leon: to senior leaders across industries, including biotech manufacturing, financial services, and professional services, who partners with executives and teams to help them get unstuck, rethink challenges, and make meaningful progress in complex environments. You are both authors of the book, The Efficient Frontier of Teaming,

Bryan Powell: Biotech manufacturing financial services and professional services Who? Partners with executives and teams to help them get unstuck and challenges and make meaningful progress in complex environments You are both of the book efficient Frontier of team you

Paul Leon: expertise in psychological safety, adaptive leadership, and agile goal setting, whose work helps teams harness productive conflict, strength, and trust as sustainment performance And just if I didn't flex enough for you here, Tom, you hold a doctorate in psychology.

Bryan Powell: expertise in psychological safety, adaptive leadership, and agile goal setting, whose work helps teams harness productive conflict strength and trust as sustainment performance ⁓ And if I didn't flex enough for you here, to hold a doctorate in psychology and an MBA from Weiner University.

Paul Leon: and an MBA from Widener University, one of the only integrated business and psychology programs in the United States. Tom, your research helps people practice design leadership solutions that are both evidence-based and actionable. And I gotta say, Brian and Tom, welcome to the manager's mic. There is a ton of intelligence.

Bryan Powell: one of the only integrated business and psychology programs in the United States. ⁓ Tom, research helps people practice design leadership solutions that are both evidence-based and actionable. And I gotta say, Brian and Tom, welcome to the managers' mic. There is a ton of intelligence in this virtual room together. I'm really looking forward.

Paul Leon: in this virtual room together. I'm really looking forward to our conversation today,

Bryan Powell: to our conversation Yeah. Appreciate being here, Paul. mean, basically you had to open up and say, got a couple of coaching geeks on the call today. love working with teams just helping them once again, reach their full potential, whatever that looks like for them. what I do for those who may have been joining us for the first time to make sure our guests are empowered. have, I send a

Paul Leon: what do for those who have been joining us for the first time to make sure our guests are empowered. ⁓ have, ⁓ send just simple email to say what questions might I guess like to be per question. So I have a question and this is just to kind of start us off going Brian and Tom. So here's the first question ⁓

Bryan Powell: just a simple email to say what questions might best like to be for requests. So I have a question, and this is just to kind of start us off going Brian and Tom. So here's the first question up. team building has been discussed for decades. Yet many organizations still struggle with alignment.

Paul Leon: ⁓ team building has been discussed for decades, yet many organizations still struggle with alignment, trust and Brian or Tom, I'll let you guys decide who wants to go first. What do you believe most companies are still getting wrong about how teams actually develop and perform?

Bryan Powell: Trust and communication. Brian or Tom, I'll let you guys decide who wants to go first. What do you believe most companies are still getting wrong about how teams actually develop and perform? I think there's a couple things there. I'll just start us off and then ⁓ get Tom's fantastic knowledge on the subject as well. But ⁓ we start working within these organizations, working with these teams, think about when you onboard with a company.

Tom Reynolds: Yeah. Yeah.

Bryan Powell: You know, they get your laptop to you. start showing you how to log in. show you all the tasks, responsibilities, everything that you're going to be executing upon for the team itself in your role. The one thing they don't talk about is, know, talk about like, how can we create a trusting environment? Like what does, let's define psychological safety together. What does an actual high performing team look like? Let's find out more about you and your uniqueness and what strengths that you bring to the team, the ideas and how we communicate together. So. The best way that I sum it up and working with the team is they're really good, usually at the quantitative. We'll look at the revenue, the production, we'll look at, our productivity, but what did really lack is really thinking about those qualitative competencies. Those ones that I mentioned, like we don't have these open discussions. I stood in front of audiences and said, how many of you on a high performing team? I got 500 leaders and they all raised their hand, but there's no definition, no conversation on what that looks like. And like I said, a lot of the qualitative things that maybe either get taken for granted.

Paul Leon: you

Bryan Powell: I got 500 leaders and they all raised their hand, but there's no definition, no conversation on what that looks like. Or we sort of pushed to the side because maybe that's for the fluff stuff, depending on the leader. Yeah, and Paul adds that, as he said Paul, the industry has been kind of charging ahead for the past few decades. Everybody gets that team development is important, it needs to feel good to be part of team, but people don't know how to make that happen beyond surface level. So this is why Brian and I focus so much on authenticity and engagement.

Paul Leon: Hmm.

Tom Reynolds: Yeah. And I'll add to that, you know, as you said, Paul, the industry has been kind of charging ahead for the past few decades. Everybody gets that team development is important. It needs to feel good to be part of a team, but people don't know how to make that happen beyond surface level. Right? So this is why Brian and I focused so much on authenticity and engagement. People aren't being authentic. If they show up to the team saying, Hey, I've got to get along and agree with everybody.

Paul Leon: Right.

Bryan Powell: People aren't being authentic if they show up to the team saying, I've got to get along and agree with everybody and make everything rosy and cheerful. What we focus on is how do we get the real stuff out there? You have to do it skillfully. You have to sign up. have to, you know, sometimes we contract directly with teams about, hey, here's how we're going to engage in disagreement. But really, least from my perspective, and I think Ryan, like, humors me on this, maybe he believes this even more than me.

Tom Reynolds: and make everything rosy and cheerful. What we focus on is how do we get the real stuff out there? You have to do it skillfully. You have to sign up. have to, you know, sometimes we contract directly with teams about, hey, here's how we're going to engage in disagreement. But really, at least from my perspective, and I think Brian, like humors me on this, maybe he believes this even more than me, you got to go through some reps of some tough conversations and commit to coming out the other side.

Paul Leon: All

Bryan Powell: You got to go through some reps of some tough conversations and commit to coming out the other side. And then, know what? You trust each other. Even if you don't agree 100%, you've gone through some difficult things together. Even if it was just a difficult conversation, say, I know how that person acts when it gets dicey. And now I want to work with them no matter what the situation. All right. Anything you want to add No, I was going say, think I'm spot on, right? We're talking about those qualitative competencies. One.

Tom Reynolds: And then you know what, you trust each other. Even if you don't agree 100%, you've gone through some difficult things together. Even if it was just a difficult conversation, say, I know how that person acts when it gets dicey, and now I want to work with them no matter what the situation.

Paul Leon: All right. Anything you want to add there,

Bryan Powell: Maybe they grew up with a leader who was more command and control, like what we've seen in the past, right? So they've tried to mimic that style or that approach thinking that's what a successful leader looks like. And when you think about the team, think Tom was spot on there when you really start to engage in these conversations, like we want to be able to challenge each other. We want to be able to take about, think about the conflict in a productive way. know, Lencioni Cioni talks about productive conflict and when I'm engaging with teams, They don't have those reps that Tom's talking about. Rather, it's usually like there's an avoidance. maybe we're not hitting certain KPI. So we're just not going to talk about it, right? Or if we do talk about it, it's I'm hitting my goals. You're not hitting goals. What's wrong with you? Rather than like, we think about accountability, we have concept in our book called Positive Accountability, where we're there to support each other. We're there knowing that failure is going to happen. How do we, how do we come out the other side and learn from it? And lot of these teams that we've been engaged with, ⁓ it's intentional. but it just hasn't been in their roadmap of skills to acquire and to actually sit down and talk about with their teams actively. And so it gets missed or once again, it gets discounted when we'll talk about it where that's the fuel that actually drives the results. And we start thinking about it, there's nothing broken, but oh my gosh, what that full potential of the team look like. And that usually gets leaders and teams really curious to think about, what that next step is. And like I said, a good part of the time, those qualitative competencies.

Paul Leon: Is there a framework or a type of ⁓ exercise

Bryan Powell: Is there a framework or a type of exercise that you guys seen that is effective across all industry levels? And I'll tell you why I'm asking this. ⁓ The reason I ask is I imagine based on the type of company psychological safety will swing different ways. And I'll give you an example.

Paul Leon: that you guys seen that is effective across all industry levels. And I'll tell you why I'm asking this. ⁓ The reason I ask is I imagine based on the type of company, psychological safety will swing different ways. And I'll give you an example. I imagine like when I used to work in car rental, ⁓ psychological safety wasn't as

Bryan Powell: I imagine, like when I used to work in a car rental, psychological safety wasn't as prioritized. I'm not knocking the car rental industry. I just want to be very clear. This is just an example. But because somebody would, if they didn't get their car, they became hostile. Or they didn't get the car they originally booked. Versus, when I started working with business owners who are making five million a year, like banking's not

Paul Leon: prioritize. I'm not knocking the car rental industry. I just want to be very clear. This is just an example. But because somebody would, if they didn't get their car, they became hostile or they didn't get the car they originally booked versus when I started working with business owners who are making 5 million a year and it's like banking and stuff, psychological safety, if you see more top of mind than the car industry. And I don't know if it's because of an income level reason. or if it's because of an industry reason. So I'm wondering if there's some exercise or frameworks we can kind of peel the onion around that you guys feel work across both to connect some dots. I'm wondering if there's some exercise or frameworks we can peel the onion around that you guys feel work across both to connect some dots.

Bryan Powell: Tom, go for it.

Tom Reynolds: Even your car rental company, I'm sure there are teams, I'm sure there are stores, branches where there is psychological safety and where there isn't. Okay. And why is that? mean, you know, sometimes Brian could tell you stories about this all day long. People who go to too much grad school do a lot of research. Sometimes they come up with brilliant ideas that people on the ground have already figured out. Okay. Here's one that I do think applies. ⁓

Paul Leon: You

Bryan Powell: ⁓ People who go to too much grad school do lot of research. Sometimes they come up with brilliant ideas that people on the graph already figured

Tom Reynolds: People go to too much grad school do a lot of research. Sometimes they come up with brilliant ideas that people on the ground have already figured out.

Paul Leon: Right. Right.

Tom Reynolds: Here's that I do think applies.

Bryan Powell: right. Here's ⁓ one that I do think applies branches where there is psychological safety where there is. Okay. And why is that? mean, you know, sometimes Brian can tell you stories about this all day long. People who go to too much grad school do a lot of research. Sometimes they come up with brilliant ideas that people on the graph already figured out. Okay, right. Here's one that I do think applies everywhere you go. We're borrowing it from a psychologist named Tim Barth, who talks about psychological safety is elevating intellectual friction while maintaining low social

Tom Reynolds: everywhere you go. We're borrowing it from a psychologist named Tim Clark, who talks about psychological safety as elevating intellectual friction while maintaining low social friction. It's almost like a yin-yang thing. And usually those things move together. So, ⁓ if we're in a disagreement about how we're going to handle this situation with a dissatisfied customer, ⁓ usually they get stuck together. And if Paul's got an idea that I think is silly,

Paul Leon: Hmm.

Bryan Powell: It's almost like a yin-yang thing and usually things move together. Okay, so ⁓ in a disagreement about how we're gonna handle this situation with a dissatisfied customer ⁓ Usually they get stuck together and if Paul's got an idea that I think is silly I ⁓ not just like the idea silly but like I don't like to work with Paul and Paul's back on his heels now he's gonna do some performance art to try to make his bosses ⁓

Tom Reynolds: I act not just like the idea is silly, but like I don't like to work with Paul. And Paul's back on his heels. Now he's going to do some performance art to try to make his boss or his teammate happy. It's not really going to solve the problem. It's just going to get through the moment. You're not going to build any deeper collaboration skills. You're not going to figure out how to solve that problem better in the future. You're just going to get through the moment, white-knuckling it, gritting your teeth, things like that. If you can disagree with the idea, but take care of Paul the person, hey, Paul,

Paul Leon: Yeah. Right.

Bryan Powell: It's not really gonna solve the problem, it's just gonna get through the moment. You're not gonna build any deeper collaboration skills, you're not gonna figure out how to solve that problem better in the future. You're just gonna get through the moment, know, white knuckling it, gritting your teeth, things like that. If you can disagree with the idea, but take care of Paul the person, hey, Paul, I don't know what to do with this IRA customer. Figure it out, tell me how it worked, we'll give you back the word, we'll figure out what works well in the future.

Tom Reynolds: Say what? I don't know what to do with this irate customer. Figure it out. Tell me how it worked. We'll debrief afterwards. We'll figure out what works well in the future. Even if I think your idea is totally silly, if I do that and I give you the chance to be yourself, try your thing out, and we both have a real conversation about whether it worked, that's much better in terms of the outcome. And you know that you can trust this guy, Tom, even if he thinks you're an idiot in that moment. I don't know if that makes sense. I don't know if that language is too casual. But I think that's what it really feels like.

Paul Leon: Ha Ha

Bryan Powell: Even if I think your idea is totally silly, if I do that and I give you a chance to be yourself, try your thing out, and we both have a real conversation about whether it worked, that's much better in terms of the outcome. And you know that you can trust this guy, Tom, even if he thinks you're an idiot in that moment. I don't know if that makes sense, don't know that language is too casual. But I think that is what it really feels like. To your point about why is it over this banking industry and not in, know, carpools?

Tom Reynolds: To your point about why is it over in this banking industry and not in car rentals, I don't know if there's anything to it. Sometimes there's differential investment in terms of who gets what and why. And so sometimes some of these best ideas hit the top of the house and then gradually make their way down. And we want to open up our ideas to leaders at every level, teams at every level, whether it's a performance team in a branch location of a car rental business or in a C-suite.

Paul Leon: Okay.

Bryan Powell: I don't know if there's anything to it. Sometimes, you know, there's differential investment in terms of like who gets what and why. And so sometimes some of these best ideas sort of hit the top of the house and then gradually make their way down. And we want to open up our ideas to leaders at every level, teams at every level, whether it's, you know, a performance team in a branch location of a car rental business or a C-suite. Some of these ideas are really universal and that's what makes it so easy to kind of

Tom Reynolds: Some of these ideas are really universal and that's what makes it so easy to transfer our framework around the different groups that we serve.

Bryan Powell: you know, transfer our framework around the different groups that we serve. Yeah. And I think one of things I would add to that is we did develop a tool. through all our coaching engagement, working with teams. So Paul, to your question, it had to become real, had become tangible rather than just some sort of theory or concept up there. when we think about things like psychological safety or trust, or how we're going to hit our measurable results, all things we have the team to find. we have a tool.

Paul Leon: Right.

Bryan Powell: that we call the team contract that's in the book. And we're actually going to provide it to you. Any listeners that want that it's a fillable PDF that once again, we've used in thousands of team engagements where we can actually sit down with all team members, not just leader and have them sit at the table together, start to define how they're going to operate together, how they're going to create psychological safety, how they're going to build trust, how they're going to engage in productive conflicts. Now it becomes real, it becomes tangible. And now we've defined.

Paul Leon: team.

Bryan Powell: our culture that we want to operate in rather than it just being, know, kind of like, you know, we'll just kind of grasp to whatever leader sort of knows in his kind of book of skills. We want the whole team to be engaged in that conversation. And when we see the whole team engaged in those discussions, it just brings it to a whole different level because it's not skip level. It's not us coaching the leader and the leader trying to go back and talk about this with the team. When the team sits at the table and creates these things together.

Paul Leon: Okay.

Bryan Powell: All of sudden that's where the words ownership, empowerment, take me. Because you let me set the table and I just spent, I created 5 % of it. I now own it because you allowed me to be that creative individual. You allowed me to have ownership of it. You empowered me rather than dictating what the best person looks like.

Paul Leon: was that tool called again? Just so can make sure I, the team contracts, the team contract. ⁓

Bryan Powell: The contract. And we'll send you a copy of that. You can have a link and give it to all your readers. They can have it utilize it within their teams as well. I almost feel... Can't get away from the topic, but I'm going to it anyways. So here's the question.

Paul Leon: I'm going talk about something ⁓ I feel ⁓ you can't get away from the topic, but I'm going to do it anyways. ⁓ here's the question. as workplace becomes more fast paced, AI driven and increasingly hybrid, what competencies ⁓ do ⁓ believe become essential teams to thrive the next five to 10 years?

Bryan Powell: five to 10 what a great question. I think it's something that we're working actively with teams right now, internally, I create a program called Amplifying Human Intelligence. And the reason I talk about it that way is that there is this, you every conference I go to, AI is every single presentation, and I'm tired of talking about AI. I think most people are exhausted by it, right?

Paul Leon: Okay.

Bryan Powell: then like, how are we going to utilize it? Show me how to take action with it. Something that helps me as a thought partner or collaborator, something to challenge my bias. So that's what we're really working with teams to say like, are you using it more transactually? Or am I throwing a prompter to, I'm using it as a note taker? Great stuff, but that's not leading to results with the team. How do you use it as that thought partner? You can help it use it as a coach. ⁓ You can actually have to play that role and really like, Hey, here's where I'm struggling. Here's where I'm seeing anxiety, help me through this. So can be something that really helped you when you start to think about the way you develop the way you adapt all the things that come along. And so as we approach this new age, if you will, I'll even go back five years ago and COVID, the workplace has already changed. We went into this hybrid remote work and now we're still operating by the old playbook.

Paul Leon: Hmm.

Bryan Powell: You see all these companies that went to more of like the remote to the hybrid. Now they're calling everybody back this last year or so, though all the numbers show they're more productive hybrid or working from home. So they're using the old playbook that we've got to be together. We've got to be able to sit a room together, buy the water cooler to be able to collaborate and innovate. Not true. So when asking those skills, I think it's those skills that have been talked up for a while. Now they're just going to be highlighted even more. So things like effective communication skills.

Paul Leon: Right. Right.

Bryan Powell: How do I make sure I can build emotional equity or emotional connection with my audience, whether it's team member, a client, a prospect, all those things come along with it. So when we start to think about emotional intelligence, I think all the research shows that that's been one of the most popular skill sets for the last decade that employers are looking for. It's just going to heighten the ability going forward. So AI can be used once again in an effective way, not the end all be all. And so how do we change that mindset? How do we get people to understand that? And then once again, how do we have it so that they can spend more time with their team members, spend more time with their clients rather than get bogged down by some of the things that cause friction in the business that we can operationalize? Tom, I don't know if you have anything to jump off of that as well. No, I would build on that and say, I think being able to reflect on your this is going to sound funny, but almost in sort of like a crack.

Paul Leon: Hmm. Hmm.

Tom Reynolds: Yeah, I no, I would build on that and say, I think being able to reflect on your work, this is going to sound funny, but almost in sort of like a practical sense in terms of like, if I'm doing an executive assessment, I do a fair amount of assessment work. There's a process there that I wouldn't realize that, you know, I'm doing multiple things at once. I'm talking to the leader I'm assessing. I'm taking notes either longhand or typing. Then I'm looking for evidence. I got to rate this leader's ability to influence without authority.

Paul Leon: Right. Okay.

Bryan Powell: sense in terms of like if I'm doing an executive assessment, I do a fair amount of assessment work. There's a process there that I wouldn't realize. You know, I'm doing things at once. I'm talking to the leader I'm assessing. I'm taking notes either wrong hand or typing. Then I'm looking for You know, I to rate this leader's ability to influence what I'm doing. I got to look for all the stuff. There are many ways I can free myself up. I use AI to, for instance, transcribe the conversation.

Tom Reynolds: I got to look for all the stuff. There are many ways I can free myself up if I use AI to, for instance, transcribe the conversation. So I don't have to worry about typing and catching everything he said. The AI is doing it. And I can just focus more on the person. If the AI can search for my evidence, I can rule out, hey, it hallucinated this. This didn't happen, blah, blah, blah. But it said this. And suddenly, I'm spending about the same amount of time on the assessment. But more of that time is sort high quality thought and less sort of

Paul Leon: Right.

Bryan Powell: So I don't have worry about typing and catching everything he said. The AI is doing it and I can just focus more on the person. The AI can search for my evidence. I can rule out, it hallucinated this, this didn't happen, but it said this. And suddenly, I'm spending about the same amount of time on the assessment, but more of that time is sort of high quality thought and less sort of high quality of grunt work. And then I've just got better ideas. I've got, ⁓ know, ideas are coming out of my mouth more clearly.

Tom Reynolds: cognitive grunt work. And then I've just got better ideas. I've got, know, ideas are coming out of my mouth more clearly, more cleanly, more to the point. And I can give people more of my time and my mind share and solve better problems than I was when I was just kind of stuck grinding away on my own, if that makes sense.

Paul Leon: Right. Hmm.

Bryan Powell: cleanly more to the point ⁓ and I can give people more of my time and my mind share and solve better problems than I was when I was just kind of stuck grinding away on my own. makes sense. No, it does. ⁓ And it's an interesting topic because you both are highly educated. Like Tom, you have a doctor in psychology and MBA. Like I just got my MBAs

Paul Leon: No, it does. And it's an interesting topic because you both are highly educated. Like Tom, you have a doctorate in psychology and MBA. Like I just got my MBAs when you were going through your doctor, maybe MBA in the education world. And I don't know when you got it. It ⁓ makes me a bad host. I apologize.

Bryan Powell: When you were going through your doctor, maybe your MBA in the education world, and I don't know when you got it, it makes me a bad host, I apologize. 2014. if you could go back in time because I feel, because you didn't have AI in my opinion, I feel like your skill sets, your skill sets Brian are highly coveted.

Tom Reynolds: That's okay. 2014.

Paul Leon: Uh, 2014. So if you could go back in time, because I feel because you didn't have AI in my opinion, I feel like your skill sets, your skill sets, Brian are highly coveted. And I'm going to tell you why the costs to run some of these data centers. I think I last checked was about $634 billion and

Bryan Powell: And I'm going to tell you why. The cost to run some of these data centers, I think I last checked, was about $634 billion. And they have to, is it more than that? No, you're spot on. And it costs to redo the work of like those pooling centers. Like we have one, like Google building one underground, not far from me. It's another, every five years they have to reinvest that. That's what I read.

Paul Leon: They have to, is it more than that? Am I spot on? it costs to redo the work of like those cooling centers. Like we have one, like Google building one underground, not far from me. It's another, every five years they have to ⁓ that. That's what I read. ⁓ ⁓ feel ⁓ because of the demand on it, there's, I feel if that bubble does pop,

Bryan Powell: I feel that because of the demand on it, I feel if that bubble does pop, people like yourself and Brian are gonna be highly coveted. Here's my question. If you could go back to Tom in 2014, would you use AI more?

Paul Leon: people like yourself, Tom and Brian are going to be highly coveted. Here's my question. If you could go back to Tom in 2014, would you use AI more? Cause I know in education right now, it's kind of like hush, hush, don't talk about it. Or would you still kind of be against it because you value just the power of the human brain? I don't know if that question made sense. I'm just curious since you're both well educated.

Bryan Powell: Cause I know in education right now, it's kind of like hush, hush, don't talk about it. would you still kind of be against it because you value just empowering human. I don't know that question made sense. just curious since you're both well educated. Yeah. Right now I have a couple of thoughts, but you can go first. So we're at different ends of spectrum there, right, buddy? So, mean, I'm currently in my PhD work. I don't know how somebody did their

Tom Reynolds: Yeah. Brian, I have a couple of thoughts, but you can go first if you want.

Bryan Powell: doctorate without using AI, And I don't say that to like write my dissertation or anything of that nature. What I mean is I don't have to go to the library and spend 14 hours trying to, to nail down scholarly, scholarly published articles, I can go to AI and say, I'm looking for five articles on high performing teams in certain industries, provide me a summary, provide me a link. can look at all those five and say these two, I need to read these other three would be a waste of my time.

Paul Leon: Hmm.

Bryan Powell: That's where AI can help me, right? Once again, as a thought partner and a collaborator. So as I think about this next stage and I am, I'll say about a year and a half, two years ago, I was completely against AI. ⁓ a coach and an author, ⁓ think I've had this conversation with Tom, like it's going to kill everybody's creativity. Everybody's going to sound exactly the same, It's all going to come out and it's going to be like the AI garbage that everybody keeps talking about, throwing around the internet. I was wrong.

Paul Leon: Hmm. Yeah.

Bryan Powell: Because once again, the way you approach AI, if you can approach it as a thought partner, it can challenge some of the things that you're coming up with or some of the concepts that you want to develop. It can really think through like your style and your approach and how it's different from maybe other thought leaders in the past. So, you know, as you approach it with your thought process, with your ideas, your creativity, that's where it can be really expansive in terms of helping you develop what you're trying to put out into the world. Not just a, Hey, write me an article on such and such. then once again, comes out to be me, right? It comes out to become the average. What we've all seen. Tom, you can, you can go from the other end of the spectrum. already done with that, right? No, everything, everything you said is something I agree with. mean, you, here's what I would say going back nine is how do we teach people to know what AI is good for it? Right. So if you ask me to write your paper.

Tom Reynolds: Yeah. Well, no, everything you said is something I agree with. mean, here's what I would say going back in time is how do we teach people to know what AI is good for and what it's not, right? So if you ask it to write your paper, it's going to write something that reads reasonably well and is probably largely accurate. But guess what? There might be embarrassing mistakes in it that are going to get you caught.

Paul Leon: Mm-hmm.

Bryan Powell: It's going to write something that reads reasonably well and is probably largely accurate. But guess what? There might be embarrassing mistakes in it that are going to get you caught. And two, you don't learn anything from that process. Because you said write it from scratch. It can kind of do that. It can get it right a lot of the time. Not all the time. But you're there not to produce a bunch of good papers. You're there to lead as a person who's more expert in the topic that you want to study. So you haven't achieved your goal if you're using AI that way.

Paul Leon: Okay.

Tom Reynolds: And two, you didn't learn anything through that process, okay? Because you just said, write it from scratch. It can kind of do that. It can get it right a lot of the time, not all the time, but you're there not to produce a bunch of good papers. You're there to leave as a person who's more expert in the topic that you want to study. So you haven't achieved your goal if you're using AI that way. But if you understand like, hey, this is a tool that can help expand my thinking. It can help me find things faster. I'm looking for a note I have to myself on my desk right now.

Paul Leon: Right. Right.

Bryan Powell: But if you understand like hey, this is a tool that can help in my thinking and help me find things faster I'm looking for a have to myself on my desk right now I mean i'm in the middle of more than one consulting engagement at the moment, right? You know doing some work through the weekend getting tired and things um called complexity which people might know about it's good for academics because it's very dialed into what academic research is available in different areas and I just asked about

Tom Reynolds: I mean, I'm in the middle of more than one consulting engagement at the moment, you know, doing some work through the weekend, getting tired. And I use, ⁓ an app called perplexity, which people might know about. It's good for academics because it's very dialed into what academic research is available in different areas. And I just asked it about work rest ratios for white collar work. Right? So like you go to the gym, you might have a trainer who talks to you about like a two to one work rest ratio, you know, work for.

Paul Leon: Right. Right.

Bryan Powell: rest ratios for white palomar, right? So like you go to the gym, you might have a trainer who talks to you about like the two to one rest ratio, you know, work for 30 seconds rest for 15. And I came up with some benchmarks, which, you know, what's interesting is there's three or four like one is like work for 52 minutes, take a break for 17. Another one was like work for 120 minutes, take a rest for 25 or I, you know, I found the note and I give you the real number. But then that gives me

Tom Reynolds: 30 seconds, rest for 15. And I came up with some benchmarks, which, you know, what's interesting is there's three or four, like one was like work for 52 minutes, take a break for 17. And another one was like work for 120 minutes, take a rest for 25. you know, if I found the note, I'd give you the real numbers. But then that gives me a little framework that's evidence-based that I didn't have 10 minutes ago that I can use to sort of like almost plan my weekend where I'm trying to like get work done.

Paul Leon: Yeah. Yeah.

Bryan Powell: a little framework that's evidence-based that I didn't have 10 minutes ago that I can use to sort of like almost play my weekend where I'm trying to like get work done, put in my knowledge of softball game, relax a little bit myself, blah blah blah, and you know, 15 years ago it would have been a lot more cumbersome to get there. You get there slowly through Google, but right now if you know what you're doing with the tool, you can get it in an instant and start changing what you're doing.

Tom Reynolds: go to my daughter's softball game, relax a little bit myself, blah, blah, blah. And 15 years ago, would have been a lot more cumbersome to get there. You get there slowly through Google. if you know what you're doing with the tool, you can get it in an instant and start changing what you're doing.

Bryan Powell: Yeah, we haven't even talked about agents yet, right? So I'm working with a lot of teams and Paul, you work with a lot with sales. So I'll work with like these large wealth management firms all across the nation. Um, and we've created like prospecting agents, So I can put in any name, any position, any title and workplace, and it can bring me up. I've trained it to build up a 21 point dossier on individuals. Right? So

Paul Leon: Yeah. Hmm. ⁓ wow.

Bryan Powell: It's a little scary what you can find, but if you think about that, like now, if I'm trying to prospect somebody, think I could really impact from that wealth advisory space. I can now look at things that I can emotionally connect with them because I can build things in there. Like I built in, ⁓ disc preference, it can infer based on all the information that pulling articles and videos and everything that that individual's put on LinkedIn and it's pulling from everywhere. So now it can help me to think about like, well, how do I have this discovery conversation? So then once again, it'll challenge the way that I show up to really think about their emotional need, not my own. AI is not going to run the meeting, but it's helping me prepare differently, As a thought partner. So those are the ways that we think it's going to change the workplace. And like I said, I'm excited because I think it's going to give time back to a lot of individuals to spend more time with people. But when you're asking that question about the skills, emotional intelligence is just going to continue to rise. Thinking about effective communication skills is going to become the norm.

Paul Leon: Mm-mm. Hmm. Right.

Bryan Powell: rather than something that somebody, the team members just do it offsite. And then really thinking about the diversity of thought and experience where you can have that productive conflict, innovate and collaborate the highest level. think those are going to be the ones that really rise to the top. I agree. Tom, did you have anything before I respond? just want to make sure your voice. more thing, right? Here's another thing to, in addition to communication skills, EQ, the only thing I'd add.

Paul Leon: I... agree. Tom, did you have anything before I respond? I just want to make sure your voice... you

Tom Reynolds: one thing, right? Here's another thing ⁓ in to communication skills, EQ, the only thing I'd add, and I think Brian's getting at this as well, is it ⁓ adds much more importance to human judgment, So it's like, if the AI can do anything that, I don't know, a spreadsheet or Google search or any of the other sort of, know, rote or quantitative tools would have done in the past. So if that's all done and everybody's got access to that,

Paul Leon: Hmm.

Bryan Powell: think Brian's getting at this as well, is it adds that much more importance to human life, So it's like, if AI can do anything that don't know how it's perceived or Google search or any of the other sort of, know, road or quantitative tools would have done in the past. So if that's all done and everybody's got access to that, then your ability to figure out, okay, then what do I do with that next? That becomes premium,

Tom Reynolds: then your ability to figure out, OK, then what do I do with that next? That becomes premium, that could mean of different things in lots of different industries. But I think that's going to be a really critical way of thinking about the future, too.

Bryan Powell: that can be lots of different things and lots of different industries. But I think that's to be a really critical way of thinking about future. That's spot on. I agree with you guys 100%. I need to check out for flex today. The tool I use mostly has in chat GPT because it streamlines a lot of my SEO and thumbnail work in combination with Canva. Just being transparent with the tools I use. outside my day

Paul Leon: I agree with you guys 100 % I need to check out perplexity the tool I use mostly has been chat GPT because it streamlines a lot of my SEO and thumbnail work in combination with Canva just being transparent with the tools I use like outside of my my day job

Bryan Powell: popped

Paul Leon: I feel based on what you're both Tom and Brian, it is definitely going to be an amplifier. It's just how we go about it. I don't let my kids use it yet, though, ⁓ because I want them to learn the core fundamentals.

Bryan Powell: guys. I feel based on what you're both saying, Tom and Brian, it definitely going to be an amplifier. ⁓ just how we go about it. don't let my kids use it yet though. ⁓ Same here, right? I think that's what we were getting at is like, it's going to be your creativity, your critical thinking skills that you bring to AI, right? So I was talking about the prospecting agent. Not everybody's going to be thinking of how to pull that together, what that would look like, all the information, where to pull it. I I'm a little hesitant to unleash that one to the rest of the world yet.

Tom Reynolds: Hmm.

Bryan Powell: Um, I did it with a big team up in Chicago, um, and did it with an individual. was in the room and it pulled off what he has watched on Netflix last, his books, cause he's putting things on Bing and some other sources. So it can get really in depth. I don't know that you'd show up to a prospecting meeting and say, Hey, so you just watched the F1 documentary on Netflix well, That it's a little scary, but once again, it's going to be your critical thinking skills, your creativity that you bring to AI, which is going to separate you from those other teams as well.

Paul Leon: Right. Yeah. Any thoughts there, Tom?

Tom Reynolds: mean a quick tie back to psychological safety Here's where the human judgment piece comes in like Brian said hey He really shouldn't know that this guy's been watching an f1 documentary even though that's a pretty innocent detail to have there are other less innocent details out there and The way that we use these tools I mean, it's you know, if you read the newspaper this will come up in like a macro sense But just like person to person if you have access to information you wouldn't have in the past

Bryan Powell: If you have access to information you wouldn't have in the past, like be a good colleague, citizen, teammate, whatever you want to call it, and respect the common sense you have about what I should know and what I shouldn't know, and what that's gonna do to my working relationship with this person if I just get way too into it with them or use the data I have on them the wrong way or don't tell them something they would really want to know that might be available out there.

Paul Leon: Bye.

Tom Reynolds: Like be a good colleague, citizen, teammate, whatever you want to call it, and respect to the common sense you have about what I should know and what I shouldn't know, and what that's going to do to my working relationship with this person if I just get way too into it with them or use data I have on them the wrong way or don't tell them something they would really want to know that might be available out there, if that makes sense.

Paul Leon: Hmm. I think it does. I'm going to put this other question on the table and I think it'll help transition and we can always go back and peel the onion further. One of the other questions I had was for both you, Brian and Tom was you, you often talk about in your content, authenticity, engagement are critical drivers for performance. Why do either of you believe those areas have such a direct impact on number one,

Bryan Powell: I think it does. I want to put this other question on the table and I think it'll help transition and we can always go back and feel the onion further. One of the other questions I had was for both of Brian and Tom, was you often talk about in your content, authenticity, engagement are critical drivers for performance. Why do either of you believe those areas have such a direct impact on number one,

Paul Leon: Innovation, number two, collaboration, and number three, long-term results inside organizations. and we can peel the onion and bring back AI and psychological safety into this question, but I want to put those on the table if I may.

Bryan Powell: innovation, number two, collaboration, and number three, long-term results inside organizations. So, and we can peel the onion and bring back AI and psychological safety into this question, but I want to put those on the table at finite. I think that's the human side of it, when Tom and I wrote this book, we were looking at different factors, different research, and we have what we call the efficient frontier of teaming. So we've got four different types of teams that a team can work through. So it's a system that you're creating, right? And we started to look at all the research, it was telling a story that was just not very good, if you will, globally. So if you look at like Gallup numbers, for instance, right? think the last 12 years, engagement scores continually go down. We're at like 30 % engaged of team members globally in their current work, which is costing something And Tom, keep me, keep me honest here. think it's like $8.8 trillion people are not fully engaged in what they do. So when you think about the engagement side of it, it, the stories out there, it's just, we're not paying attention to it. So how can we help people feel engaged in their role and not just feel they're showing up to do some transactional job, right? Just the tasks and the responsibilities that they're actually contributing to the success of the organization. and then the authenticity side of it, that's something that we're very passionate about. you know,

Paul Leon: .

Bryan Powell: Tom's certified in different personality assessments, I am as well. One that I use here with Teams is DiSC where not only do we do it in individual assessments, but we map out the whole team. And what I find so interesting is you can have things where the similarity effect shows up, where we usually connect with those that are just like us. So I'll see a team that has like 25 team members and they're all exactly the same or pretty similar, that comes to their attributes. Or I'll see a team where the senior leader unknowingly was just hiring some

Paul Leon: Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Bryan Powell: everybody opposite of them thinking that all of sudden I had to fill in the skillset, but then 15 team members all are identical in the same. So when you ask that question, we think about like innovation, we think about collaboration, we think about like full potential of our results. We can have people one show up fully engaged in their role in their job and they feel that they're actually empowered, they have ownership, that they're actually contributing to the success of the organization. Tone goes up, their effort goes up, support goes up. When you think about it from an authenticity side, that's a big drummer. So people feel like they have to wear their mask. I have to show like my leader wants me to show up, That's really showing that, I'm not fully bringing myself to my full ideas. The things that could be unique, things that could be contrary to what the leader's coming up with that really could take this project or this result we're trying to work on to a whole other level. So when we start looking at it, we go from those two levers and we think about

Paul Leon: right.

Bryan Powell: At bottom, have what's called a dependent team. You're dependent on the leader. You're not going to make a decision because you're afraid to make that decision. So you have to have a leader and they become the bottleneck. It's almost, almost equivalents like the old command and control style. Think about it. ⁓ you evolve through these four and we call it the top. It's an empowered team. You respect my ideas. You want to hear those ideas. We're bringing unique strengths to the team. We're going to think about things differently so we can come up with the best results. And if we have everybody on the same that.

Paul Leon: Right. Hmm. Hmm.

Bryan Powell: Is you know not authentic to how they show up? We're not getting that diverse of thought and experience So that's why we pull on those two levers and I said research really opened our eyes when we were curious about pulling this together and thinking of what really drives that performance and those were the two that Really stood out to us as we started to craft that whole framework Tom I'll throw it to you

Tom Reynolds: Yeah, I mean, the only thing I would add is I think there's been a shift that Brian and I observed in this research and have just seen through our own, you know, decade plus experience coaching, working in other jobs and things like that. There was a time maybe where you go to a job and you put on the jersey for the company you work for. And it's just understood that's what we're going to do. OK, people are not willing to put that jersey on.

Bryan Powell: observed in this research and have just seen through our own you know decade-plus experience coaching working in other jobs and things like that there was a time maybe where you go to a job and you put on the jersey for the company you work for and it's just understood that's what we're gonna do okay right people are not willing to put that jersey on in the same thinking way anymore they they want to be respected

Tom Reynolds: in the same unthinking way anymore. ⁓ They want to be respected for who they are. They want to be able to put that jersey on and be whoever they are in a sense, outside of work, what they have going on at home, what their ideas are about the industry they work in, whatever it may be. People want a different contract with their employer in terms of all those intangible things that aren't written down, but we all kind of understand what we're doing here. And so if you're going to get people to put on the jersey for your organization,

Paul Leon: Right.

Bryan Powell: they are they want to be able to put that jersey on and be whoever they are in a sense you know outside of work what they're on home what their ideas are about the industry they work in whatever it may be people people want a different contractor employer in terms of all those intentional things that aren't written down but we all kind of understand what we're doing here so if you're gonna get people to put on the jersey for your organization you have to figure out how to make that authentic for the person joining your team

Tom Reynolds: you have to figure out how to make that authentic for the person joining your team. And it doesn't mean it can't be one size fits all. It also can't be all of us running around, making the leader herd cats and doing our own thing. But you have to engage people in a way that's authentic. If you really want to get the most value out of people. And frankly, what are we here to do, you know, begin with? Like, why are we showing up at work every day? Is it to, is it to tick a box? Is it to earn a paycheck? Is it to... ⁓

Paul Leon: Right.

Bryan Powell: And it doesn't mean it can't be one size fits all. also can't be all of us running around, making the leader herd cats and doing our own thing. But you have to engage people in a way that's authentic if you really want to get the most value out of people. Frankly, what are we here to do, you know, begin with? Like, why are we showing up at work every day? ⁓ Is it to take a box? Is it to earn a paycheck? Is it to, ⁓ you know, through the next, you know, mortgage payment? Or is it to make a difference somehow?

Tom Reynolds: you know, get through the next mortgage payment or is it to make a difference somehow, do some work that's really valuable beyond the X's and O's, beyond the dollars and cents ⁓ in teams that really excel today have figured out how to do that.

Bryan Powell: do some work that's really valuable beyond the X's and O's, beyond the dollars and cents. ⁓ In teams that really excel today, have figured out how to do that. You both mentioned the word research a few times there in your last responses. I'm curious to feel the onion around. When you were researching, was there anything specific in all the data? were like, it really opened your eyes a lot. Brian or Tom, either one of you can step in here.

Paul Leon: You both mentioned the word research a few times there in your last responses. I'm curious to peel the onion around when you were researching, was there anything specific in all the data that really opened your eyes a lot? And Brian or Tom, either one of you can step in here. And I'm curious what really were some eye openers in your research, whether they're data points or stories or case studies.

Bryan Powell: And I'm curious what will really force my openers in your research, whether they're data points or stories or case studies. Tom, start us off. mean, would, yeah, sure. So I will go back to the framework I was talking about with psychological safety earlier in the conversation. And this is something, look, I've been in school since, or I was in school starting in 2009. I think I discovered Tim Clark's work on psychological safety.

Tom Reynolds: I mean, would, yeah, sure. So I will go back to the framework I was talking about with psychological safety earlier in the conversation. And this is something, look, I've been in school since, or I was in school starting in 2009. I think I discovered Tim Clark's work on psychological safety in the past 10 years, but more than five years ago. And just the simple notion that psychological safety is actually the presence of two different types of friction.

Bryan Powell: in the past 10 years, but more than five years ago. And just the simple notion that psychological safety is actually the presence of two different types of friction in the right balance just made intuitive sense to me. I mean, in less jargony language, it's like, ⁓ yeah, I don't trust somebody if I haven't disagreed with them. Right, right. Which is sort of counterintuitive. But then you're like, yeah, it's kind of like the whole foxhole thing. you find a foxhole with somebody and you know they'll save your life and you've proven you'll save their life.

Tom Reynolds: in the right balance just made intuitive sense to me. I mean, in less jargony language, it's like, ⁓ yeah, I don't trust somebody if I haven't disagreed with them yet. Right? Which is sort of counterintuitive, but then you're like, yeah, it's kind of like the whole foxhole thing. If you've been in a foxhole with somebody and you know they'll save your life and you've proven you'll save their life, you're going to trust each other forever. But you know, you don't have to go through moments quite that intense, but you have to do something difficult together.

Paul Leon: Right.

Bryan Powell: You're going to trust each other forever. But you know, you don't have to go through it's quite that intense, but you have to do something difficult together. And it can't be a trust fall on a ropes course because that doesn't translate to work that feels performing hokey. You got to deal with a real challenge at work, something that's emotionally salient to both of you. And then it's like, yeah, I'll with that person. You said Joan Clark was the author that you resonated with. Yeah. What? And I haven't heard that name. I wish I did.

Tom Reynolds: And it can't be a trust fall on a ropes course because that doesn't translate to work that feels performative and hokey. You got to deal with a real challenge at work, something that's emotionally salient to both of you. And then it's like, yeah, I'll work with that person any day of the week.

Paul Leon: You said Tim Clark was the author that you resonated with. What? And I haven't heard that name. I wish I did. I was sharing with Brian. I went through a psychologically damaging period in my career at a certain time, which took a lot to get on the other side of. Now I am. Why Tim Clark comes to mind so much. Is there something that resonated about him or is he just kind of like, kind of like the Cotter Institute on change management as an analogy?

Tom Reynolds: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. mean, just to, you know, for, people who are going to go, you know, look at Amazon for what else is out there. mean, Amy Edmondson is kind of like the most well-known leading light on psychological safety. Tim Clark is, you know, I don't know, arguably the second most important researcher. just, you know, I'm belaboring the point, but I just like that simple conceptualization. It's like, now I know what I got to do every day. ⁓ I'm about to have a disagreement. Okay. I got to make sure it's not personal, but I got to dial up the heat if I really care about this thing.

Bryan Powell: I was sharing with Brian, I went through a psychologically damaging period in my career at a certain time, which took a lot to get on the other side of, now I am. Why Tim Clark comes to mind so much? Is there something that resonated about him or is he just kind of like the Cotter Institute on change management? Yeah. mean, just for people who are gonna go, you

Paul Leon: Interesting. Yeah.

Bryan Powell: look at Amazon for what else is out there. I Amy Edmondson is kind of like the most well known meeting light on psychological safety. Tim Clark is arguably the second most important researcher. I just, you know, I'm belaboring the point, but I just like that simple conceptualization. It's like, now I know what I got to do every day. I'm about to have a disagreement. Okay. I got to make sure it's not personal, but I got to dial up the heat if I really care about this thing. And then afterward I'm going to dance around and make sure we're cool and are personal. Right.

Tom Reynolds: And then afterward, I'm going to dance around and make sure we're cool interpersonally.

Paul Leon: Right. Any thoughts there, Brian, too, that you want to add

Bryan Powell: Any thoughts there, Brian, too, that you want to Yeah, I think that's why Tom and I both have different approaches. And that's why we collaborated on writing this book that took us a couple of years to actually get out there and get published. So we already talked about Gallup. There's a ton of information that you can go out from Gallup and it's all free. It's out there for leaders and teams. So examine. One I bring up, was a study Dale Carnegie and Associates put out because there's no definition for a high performing team. So I'll give you a story. was standing in front of 300 leaders and a very large wealth advisory firm. All these are market executives at billions of dollars that they're responsible for. I asked the question, how many of are on a high performing team? So out of the 300, all 300 raised their hand, whether it's out of peer pressure or not knowing the definition or feeling that they have to raise their hand because they are high performing. And then I asked them, said, like, you know, that's not even statistically possible.

Paul Leon: Hmm.

Bryan Powell: Because when you go to that research, looks at only 30 % on a global level are considered high performing teams. And the three top competencies, number one is having those well-defined KPIs and goals, which I have found that maybe at a high level there's lagging KPIs, but leading KPIs set expectations are really sometimes non-existent. Number two is communication. Like we talked about earlier. So effective communication shows up as the number two competency of a driver, a high performing team.

Paul Leon: Yeah. Hmm.

Bryan Powell: Third one, which shocks a lot is consistent time for learning and development. And I can tell you in our coaching, that times gets pushed to the side. Like we're not talking about like our mandatory classes that we have to take every year through our organization. We're saying like, are we giving our team members every month time to develop their skills, develop competencies they want to really enhance going forward. And usually that gets pushed aside for the transactional work of their day to day.

Paul Leon: Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bryan Powell: Rather than saying like, well, summer's coming and we'll have time to, you know, to kind of sit down and go through and do some learning together. So when they hear that, then I go back to all those 300 and that example and say, how many now are on a high performing team? And it's like 15 people that raised their hand, which is fine. We've got some high performers out there, but once again, when you look at the research, one, we don't define in the workplace what a high performing team actually is or what they do really about it from an aspect of, we really

Paul Leon: Right. Yeah.

Bryan Powell: I in high performance level, or am I just under peer pressure or thinking have to say that or from ego? I think that I'm my performing team and three, do I know what actually aligns with that? And are we focused on those areas? So, you know, once again, we, we've put a lot of thought, a lot of effort, a lot of research into the book. So as Tom was mentioning, those are all great influences. Simon Sinek is somebody who I geek out about. we've got some of that influence in there as well. But I think when you think about a high performing team, actually define it together.

Paul Leon: Right. Yeah.

Bryan Powell: look at research and say, we're going put our time and attention so we can actually raise our hand confidently, not just out of peer pressure. It's hard to write a book. It's hard to be on a team. It's hard to get a PhD, which you've done, Tom, and you're finishing up, Brian. I'm just genuinely curious. How did you both end up partnering together as a team, writing a book as a team?

Paul Leon: It's hard to write a book. It's hard to be on a team. It's hard to get a PhD, which you've done, Tom, and you're finishing up, Brian. I'm just genuinely curious. How did you both end up partnering together as a team, writing a book as a team and being successful coaches of team? Just because I haven't had an opportunity to hear your stories. How did you guys end up becoming a team?

Bryan Powell: and being successful coach as a team. Just because I haven't had an opportunity to hear your stories, how did you guys end up becoming a team? turn to a professional relationship and did some great results that we are today? Yeah, we'll leave the name of the organization now, but we worked at the same organization in different capacities.

Paul Leon: turn into a fruitful relation, professional relationship, and to some great results that we are today. Okay.

Bryan Powell: I worked on a large company. was working with an executive coach. So all of our different leaders, all different levels. think I had like 190 leaders that I was working with personally, sales, service, construction, marketing, all over. Right. So really helping them to become the best versions of themselves. And Tom was part of that organization, a learning development capacity, helping us to build all these programs, everything that would help the overall organization to really. up their level and skill set. And we got put on a project together early on, a couple months that I was within the organization and got to spend some time together. And what I always love, what I always appreciate, especially in the coaching and consulting world is somebody that comes with a different perspective. I think in this profession, you know, people can challenge me on it, but I believe it's an art form. So what I mean by that is like, I can walk into a museum, I can see a Picasso, I can see a Michelangelo, I can see others, and ⁓ I can all of them. And it's the same way, like I have a different approach that I approach when I'm thinking about leaders and teams. Tom has a different approach and we put those together. We felt it creates something that would really be beneficial to teams out there. frameworks, ways to really bring to their attention, get them curious. And then like I said, with our different skillsets applied, it really became something that could be valuable and impactful.

Tom Reynolds: I mean, here's the only thing I would add is there are different roads into the coaching space. Okay. So I came, I went to shrink school, right? To become a therapist. Okay. And then I went to my career. Brian had a career leading people, solving organizational problems, things like that and said, Hey, I'm going to give coaching a try. And at this place where we both worked,

Paul Leon: Hmm. Interesting.

Bryan Powell: mean, here's the only thing I would add is there are different roads into the coaching space. Okay, so I came, I went to strength school. I'm a therapist, okay? And then I went to my career. Brian had a career leading people, solving organizational problems, things like that. He hey, I'm gonna give coaching a try. And at this place where we both worked.

Tom Reynolds: It was like, you know, two ships sort of crossing in the night, but noticing there's some, there's some talent over there that I don't have for, for reasons that I can't control. But it's like, like, you know, if you come out of a clinical psychology program, you're going to want to nest everything you do in that. And you're not going to pay as much attention to, more industry, ⁓ originated coaching approaches. And I just would sit in rooms and be like, everything Brian says just makes a ton of sense.

Bryan Powell: It was like, you know, two ships are crossing in the night. There's some talent over there that I don't have for reasons I can't control. But it's like, you know, if you come out of a clinical psychology program, you're going to want to nest everything you do. You're not going to pay as much attention ⁓ industry ⁓ coaching approaches. And I just would sit and be like, everything Brian says just makes a ton of sense.

Tom Reynolds: Like whatever I was thinking of doing, I wasn't thinking of what he was doing. He was just so to the point. And I was like, okay, like I need to go learn more of what he's doing. Like at one point I said, Brian, what are your, what are your five best books on coaching? Nothing that I was assigned in grad school. So it's just exposed to a lot more. I mean, if, you get a, know, if you get us at a bar and we're both had a beer or two, you know, Brian will describe me as more analytical and things like that. And he's just like intuitive and connects the dots quickly and.

Paul Leon: You All right. Right. Right.

Tom Reynolds: connects with the person quickly, I can do that too, but Brian just has a knack for that. And so it's just recognizing there was something complimentary that we could get out of working together.

Bryan Powell: Can I go back for a second and I think I don't know if you just quoted Kenny Rogers or Dolly Parton, but you said two ships passing in the night. Isn't that like? No, I loved it man, it had me almost like a tear come down, right?

Paul Leon: Right. Yeah! do.

Tom Reynolds: Yeah, I don't know. Apologies if that was the wrong metaphor or one you weren't comfortable with, Brian. That's where human judgment is still important if you're going to use a metaphor, deliver a cheesy joke on a podcast.

Paul Leon: It's fine ⁓

Bryan Powell: Now I gotta go Spotify and look that up I got a song So this book, The Inefficient Frontier of Teeming, between the both of you, how much time, energy, and mind power will we say again, even a number when in

Paul Leon: Hello.

Tom Reynolds: Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Leon: No, you can totally reference whatever you want, man. This is your guys at the star. So this book, The Efficient Frontier of Teaming between the both of you, how much time, energy and mind power will we say if you had to give it a number went into it?

Tom Reynolds: W R

Bryan Powell: So it's such an interesting question because I think Tom and I both been actively working in the coaching space for 14, 15 years, you over a decade, let's call it that. And so, you know, these are things that we've done with leaders and with team and coming out back from different concepts, approaches. So We have a lot of uniqueness that we put into this book, right? And there's some that we talked about from that research perspective of those thought leaders that we, really think fantastic. So when I think about it, it's like probably that whole 13, 14 years of growth for myself of thinking like, how would this interact with a team? How would we start to develop this and different iterations that has taken us time to get to the output that we have now. Actually writing it, it was fun, but it took us like two, two and a half years to actually get it completed, get it done. We hired a professional editor even before we got it over to the publisher who then edited it again. Um, just because we were thinking of like, okay, we need somebody to check us. We'll geek out and we'll get wordy. think the first, what was the first version, Tom, like 77,000 words or something. It's supposed to be like 45,000 words for a, for a book or a business book or what have you. Um, so it's a lot of passion, a lot of thought process that we've been working on with leaders, with team for years.

Paul Leon: You

Tom Reynolds: Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Paul Leon: Wow. All right.

Bryan Powell: that we thought, if we could put this together and share it with other teams and other organizations, how that would be impactful. So, you know, lot of, a of work, a lot of effort, a lot of things that we put into it. Um, but it all came from experience as well. Trial and error. I will throw into that as well.

Tom Reynolds: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Paul Leon: Anything else there, Tom? Or did he cover it?

Tom Reynolds: No, I would just say we were having conversations like this, but you weren't there, Paul. And eventually we said, there's a book in these conversations. So let's write it.

Paul Leon: wish was there. Sounds like a conversation, especially over a beer, Dolly Parton jokes. if a leadership team's listening today who to improve their and effectiveness of their team immediately.

Bryan Powell: There you a leadership team who wants to improve their health and effectiveness of their team immediately. I want to kind of ask this question slightly different. Around the topics of leadership, building teams, improving health and effectiveness, what haven't we discussed that we should discuss in this conversation that is relevant, important, and moves the needle on improving psychological safety? as you your words earlier, Brian, build an empowered team which very few

Paul Leon: I want to kind of ask this question slightly different around the topics of leadership, building teams, improving health and effectiveness. What haven't we discussed that we should discuss in this conversation that is relevant, important and moves the needle on improving psychological safety? And you use your words earlier, Brian, build an empowered team, which very few companies or organizations will actually achieve.

Bryan Powell: company organizations will actually achieve. Yeah, I'll give you a quick one. This could be for a leader or a team member, but any team that I'm working with, we start to really dive in. Every team is unique. There's no process to this, but I had a great mentor. Her name is Janet Harvey. She's a master certified coach. When I was first getting into coaching knew what I didn't know. I had to learn and she's been a great influence on my life last 12, 13 years. And she something to me early on. She said, everybody you work with. is creative, capable, and resourceful. And that's always stuck with me. And I'm when working with a team or a leader, I would challenge you to be curious. Like next time you go to a or you show up with that team member, they're sitting across from you. They're creative, they're capable, they're resourceful in their own way. You don't need to dictate to them. You don't need to lead them to water. You can let them to be their authentic selves, fully engaged like we were talking about before. But through that lens, I'll say it again, that everybody you work with is creative, capable, and resourceful. And I think that's a mindset shift that really helps a lot of leaders to be curious and team members to show up differently. that's ⁓ actually the first time I've that little bitty from Brian. But you know, completely aligns with what I'm about to say, which is if you're a leader out there and you're feeling stuck, as long as you feel like the following things are true, one is I know what direction I want to go. And I know I'm committed to persevering, you know, given reasonable resistance. From there, do whatever you can.

Tom Reynolds: and that's actually the first time I've heard that, ⁓ little ditty from Brian, but, but, you know, it completely aligns with what I'm about to say, which is if you're a leader out there and you're feeling stuck, as long as you feel like the following things are true, one is I know what direction I want to go. And I know I'm committed to persevering, you know, given reasonable resistance from there, do whatever you can. ⁓ to get your team to call out roadblocks as directly as possible and call out opportunities to move faster or move more skillfully as directly as possible and get that dialogue going. And that's how you're gonna get that creativity out of your people and their ability to help you move the needle, Because if you're stuck in performance art and you're stuck in hitting this month's numbers ⁓ making it look good to management.

Paul Leon: Yeah.

Bryan Powell: to get your team to call out roadblocks as directly as possible and call out opportunities to move faster or move more skillfully as directly as possible and get that dialogue going. And that's how you're gonna get that creativity out of your people and their ability to help you move the needle, Because if you're stuck in performance art and you're stuck in hitting this one's numbers and making it look good to management.

Tom Reynolds: and pretending that you're in charge and why would anyone ever question you're in charge? Well, then you're just not going to get the same buy-in. But if you're committed to the goal and you're committed to working on whatever comes up, then give people permission to be their full selves, share their full ideas. You got to expect the same baseline stuff from them too. They've got to be committed too. But if everybody's committed to that, then you can have a much more open and robust conversation and problems are going to get solved faster. It's not going to look perfect.

Paul Leon: Huh. All right.

Bryan Powell: and pretending that you're in charge and why would anyone ever question you're in charge? Well, then you're just not gonna get the same buy in. But if you're committed to the goal, and you're committed to working on whatever comes up, they give people permission to be their full selves, share their full ideas, you gotta expect the same baseline stuff from them too. They've gotta be committed too. If everybody's committed to that, then you can have a much more open and robust conversation and problems are gonna get solved faster. It's not gonna look perfect.

Tom Reynolds: but it never does to begin with, So let's not pretend, let's get progress and then let's dial in the perfection in the right situations as we approach the goal.

Bryan Powell: but it never does to begin So let's not pretend, let's get progress and then let's dial in the perfection in the right situations as we approach the goal. Yeah, I think, I think this was an awesome conversation, Paul. I think, uh, you know, we met us before we even synced up with you. We're, two coaching geeks that very are passionate about what we do, how we do it. We're learning all the time. we're curious students as well. you anybody out there, any of your listeners want to, you know, have more conversations, want to geek out with us, want to ask us a question, you know, that can go to our website, the efficient frontier of teaming, find a lot of information there on us. can send us an email.

Tom Reynolds: 24 hours a day, no, yeah.

Bryan Powell: We're always willing to kind of jump on a call, even if it's 15, 20 minutes to answer some questions or, you know, help a team through a consultation. So, um, you know, we think, uh, what would it be, it looked like if, you know, teams had the opportunity in the workplace to actually have a roadmap to reach potential and to smile on both our faces. And when we approach it with teams that way as well, like we don't walk in and say, all right, this is broken. This needs to be fixed. There are already successful teams. You know, almost everybody has some sort of level of success. We start to get them thinking about what would that full potential look like? And we can't name it for them. They have to actually name it. And that's where, once again, the empowerment comes from the ownership, but just helping to get them there, challenge them in that positive way. And like I said, a lot of the things that we talk about today and even more, we put those concepts in the book so that they're actual things that they can go back and use rather than just the theory behind it as well.

Paul Leon: Yeah.